Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 12622 posts, RR: 53 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2537 times:
I can understand the IAM's desire - especially amongst older workers - to stick with a pension considering how volatile the stock market has been and the impact it has had on 401Ks.
Scbriml From Saudi Arabia, joined Jul 2003, 8416 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2485 times:
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I think this is a painful, but necessary move by Boeing.
They really don't need a damaging strike right now, and with profits pouring in, the union would be prepared to push very hard. IMHO, Boeing has a lot more to lose from a strike next week than the union. I expect Boeing's best and final offer to be very close to what the union are asking for. If that is the case, then I think a costly strike will be avoided.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 15618 posts, RR: 49 Reply 4, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2370 times:
If both sides can work to keep the pension alive, why not? I would just suggest that the union buy plenty of insurance against it for the future, just in case.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Pianos101 From United States, joined Jan 2008, 266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2279 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 1): I can understand the IAM's desire - especially amongst older workers
I think you missed the point of the article. Only NEW employees will not have a pension. Current employees will have no change to their retirement accounts (they will have both a traditional pension and the company 401K - the VIP). Many other companies (including Lockheed) are going this route, which provides retirees with a specific payment amount that will be distributed, instead of a monthly payout "forever." This, obviously, reduces the bet that the company places on how long you will live....
Pensions are very iffy these days anyway, and Boeing's pension "replacement" still guarantees a payout, unlike the traditional 401k. It just has some 401k elements to it. This is a (IMHO) better idea. There's another thread that we hijacked to talk about the union's stupid demands after rejecting the pretty good second offer...
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 12622 posts, RR: 53 Reply 6, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2221 times:
Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 5): I think you missed the point of the article. Only NEW employees will not have a pension.
No, I am quite familiar with Boeing's original offer of keeping the pension for all employees hired through this year and all employees hired from 2009 onwards being on a new 401k program instead of a pension. The IAM balked on the grounds it would schism the union since as those hired prior to 2009 started to retire, there would be more pressure on those left to take the 401k option in later contract talks. Especially considering how the pensions in the steel and airline industries were liquidated during their respective financial upheavals which left those who had retired or close to it protected, while those much farther away from retirement risked having significantly reduced benefits - if any.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5276 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2185 times:
This is going to be a costly year for Boeing with IAM contract now and SPEEA contract negotiations in a few months. The unions want everything they gave back in the wake of 9/11 and the airline industry downturn since the backlog and deliveries are larger than ever.
I'm not in IAM myself, so my opinion doesn't really matter, but I mostly understand the reason for going to a 401K. I enjoy the 401K options although the 401K at Boeing isn't that great since it is so tightly managed.
In general, I'm a believer that there is a very good chance of a strike. The union is marching daily up and down the factory with hundreds of people. Every hour on the hour there are loud chants and displays of solidarity involving drums, cow bells, whistles, car horns and every other noise maker imaginable. They have a lot of support. It's getting near impossible to get work done efficiently.
Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 3): I agree; they really had no choice. Anything delaying the 787 at this point is money out of Boeing's pockets.
While delaying 787 is a horrible PR move, stopping the money maker 737 line which is funding much of BCA at the moment could be more costly.
[Edited 2008-08-27 20:59:39]
I design airplane parts for a living and am that guy that mechanics hate and blame for everything... the Design Engineer
Ruscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1031 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2167 times:
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe that the number of Boeing Commercial emloyees (and hence I assume IAM members), has declined significantly from its peak some years ago.
Fewer people getting more money probably won't hurt that much.
Also as stated, Boeing is poised for some big revenue increases in the future when 787 and 748 production ramps up.
707lvr From United States, joined Jun 2004, 389 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2107 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): pensions in the steel and airline industries were liquidated during their respective financial upheavals
Most union members believe their pensions are safely locked away after having being saved during their many years of employment. This always amazes me when I hear the annual "bring down the company" refrain, one which is louder than usual this time.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 907 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2067 times:
Almost without exception, workers lose in a strike. The only winner is usually the union. Their leaders don't have to feed their family's on strike pay. They don't have to worry about losing their houses or cars. They get full pay no matter what.
I'm curious; do workers still have to pay union dues during a strike? How many weeks on strike totally negates any gains made during strike?
Pianos101 From United States, joined Jan 2008, 266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8): I believe that the number of Boeing Commercial emloyees (and hence I assume IAM members)
No. BCA employees are made up of the following: machinists in IAM, engineers in SPEEA, management, AND contractors.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 6): No, I am quite familiar with Boeing's original offer of keeping the pension for all employees hired through this year and all employees hired from 2009 onwards being on a new 401k program instead of a pension.
Sorry misread your post....
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): although the 401K at Boeing isn't that great since it is so tightly managed
Really? I don't think it's that bad... Someone here that used to work for GEAE said that their options are MUCH worse than the ones here. So, I guess it's all relative...
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): but I mostly understand the reason for going to a 401K.
Much of my point is that the pension replacement is not just simply a 401k. IMHO it's a 401k-esque plan where Boeing contributes no matter what the employee contributes. So if the employee contributes nothing Boeing will still contribute, just like a traditional pension. The difference is that the employee can choose to contribute (and also the the real 401k) and upon retirement a "lump sum" is paid instead of a monthly payment until death. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5276 posts, RR: 17 Reply 12, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1879 times:
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 8): I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe that the number of Boeing Commercial emloyees (and hence I assume IAM members), has declined significantly from its peak some years ago.
BCA employees are about 70,000 and IAM makes up less than 20,000 of that. The employment numbers now are a lot higher than the were a few years ago in the wake of the layoffs after 9/11. Employment numbers are down now from their peak in the 90s, but Boeing is building more commercial airplanes per month now than ever before. They are doing it though with fewer people due to manufacturing process improvements.
[Edited 2008-08-28 08:38:41]
I design airplane parts for a living and am that guy that mechanics hate and blame for everything... the Design Engineer
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2919 posts, RR: 23 Reply 13, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1772 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): In general, I'm a believer that there is a very good chance of a strike. The union is marching daily up and down the factory with hundreds of people. Every hour on the hour there are loud chants and displays of solidarity involving drums, cow bells, whistles, car horns and every other noise maker imaginable. They have a lot of support. It's getting near impossible to get work done efficiently.
LMAO! I think your right about the strike potential. The first offer was awful. The second was better..... But after looking at it closer, I realized that all they did was shift the money around. What is worse, the COLA payout is supposed to be $0.40 on September 5th, but the company does not want to pay it. That COLA would be a record COLA generated, and I know alot of guys and gals that are just flaming hot after learning that Boeing did not want to pay it.
Boeing really needs to step up to the plate. Apparently they are going to put out their best and final offer today (Thursday). We are going to look it over closely, and go from there. I can say however, the best and final offer better be 110 times better than what the last offer was. Otherwise, Boeing will likely face a work stoppage. Boeing is doing nothing for the newer employees, but raising the starting pay for new hires. It leaves those in progression steps making as much as someone coming off the streets. That alone is unfair. If that does not change, I promise you a strike.
Gotta love the marches! Makes you wonder what kind of medical benefits the execs have? I am concerned, because they obviously still can't hear us, or see us.
And greed is not what the IAM is about. The IAM is the voice of the employees, and the IAM is asking what the employees are asking for. The union is only the voice of us, and we the people make the decision to strike, or not to strike. Sure Boeing is a good company to work for, but they can be better. I sure hope this offer has more substance to it....
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 12622 posts, RR: 53 Reply 14, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1762 times:
It sounds like Boeing is hoping they can repeat 2002, where the majority of IAM members voted to reject the contract, but also failed to achieve the 66+% vote necessary to call a strike, which resulted in Boeing's offer taking effect.
If it does not work, and the IAM authorizes a strike, I hope Boeing decides to immediately repeat 1999 and offer an emergency concession that improves pay and holds down medical costs because just like in 1999, Boeing needs the IAM to get them back on track.
F9Animal From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2919 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1721 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 14): It sounds like Boeing is hoping they can repeat 2002, where the majority of IAM members voted to reject the contract, but also failed to achieve the 66+% vote necessary to call a strike, which resulted in Boeing's offer taking effect.
If it does not work, and the IAM authorizes a strike, I hope Boeing decides to immediately repeat 1999 and offer an emergency concession that improves pay and holds down medical costs because just like in 1999, Boeing needs the IAM to get them back on track.
Judging by the marches and how the word is in the factory, Boeing is going to have to really step up to the plate. Speaking of, apparently the best and final offer was handed over to the IAM about 30 minutes ago. I am anxiously waiting for it to come over, but the union website is currently bogged down. I would imagine thousands upon thousands are trying to access it right now. Talk about anxiety!!!!
Stitch From United States, joined Jul 2005, 12622 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1708 times:
Yes, local Seattle radio had an interview with an IAM spokeswoman who noted it was some 300 pages in length and was being analyzed "line by line".
But with the delivery of some 40 planes worth $4-5 billion per month on the line, I have to hope Boeing is not going to risk a strike.
I admit I made a killing buying Boeing in 1997 and selling in 2007, but I'd rather not see Boeing nor it's workers go through that decade again (especially since it ended up costing me my own position within Boeing).
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5276 posts, RR: 17 Reply 17, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1644 times:
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
Gotta love the marches! Makes you wonder what kind of medical benefits the execs have? I am concerned, because they obviously still can't hear us, or see us.
Well the engineers certainly can hear you! Engineers though are far more likely to support the efforts of the IAM since when the SPEEA contract negotiations start in a few months, the engineers are hoping to get similar concessions to what IAM will.
I design airplane parts for a living and am that guy that mechanics hate and blame for everything... the Design Engineer
Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1172 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1578 times:
So what do you think? WIll this be good enough?
Quote: Aug. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. gave its largest union a final contract offer that would increase pay and benefits by $34,000, or 38 percent, on average over three years in an effort to avoid a strike next week.
Workers would get a $2,500 bonus if they accept the offer by Sept. 3, Chicago-based Boeing said today on its Web site. The offer would preserve the way Boeing uses contractors, rejecting changes the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers sought and had said it would be willing to strike over.
......
Boeing earlier this week offered to boost compensation by $28,000 over the three years from the current average of about $90,000 a year including overtime, bonuses and benefits.
The final proposal provides raises of 5 percent the first year and 3 percent the following two years. The combined 11 percent raise would be the biggest since the one of the same amount in 1999, according to Boeing. The union has said it was seeking an increase at the top end of the 9 percent to 13 percent three-year range it's won recently for other aerospace companies.
Today's revised terms also include a 14 percent increase in pension payments; cost-of-living raises each year; a bonus of 6 percent of gross wages or $2,500 each, whichever is greater; and the extra $2,500 if the deal is accepted on a first vote on or before Sept. 3.
Boeing dropped several plans the union had termed ''strike issues,'' including proposals to negotiate a separate contract for the 700 machinists in Wichita, Kansas; to give new workers a 401(k)-style retirement plan instead of the traditional defined- benefit pension; and to cut medical coverage for early retirees.
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