LH4116 From Sweden, joined Aug 2007, 451 posts, RR: 1 Posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17474 times:
I just read in an article yesterday about a woman being denied boarding a KLM flight because she had a low fare ticket.
Quote: When Jenny Wik 33 was about to fly home from Amsterdam she was not allowed to board the flight. The reason to that was that the flight was overbooked and her tickets were too cheap.
-I don't think i will ever dare to fly with KLM again, she says.
At last Jenny and her mom were allowed to board the flight because two Business Class passengers didn't show up at the gate.
Do airlines prioritize pax that have purchased a cheap ticket less than standard fare paying pax?
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Dtwclipper From United States, joined Oct 2003, 6607 posts, RR: 30 Reply 1, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17430 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): I just read in an article yesterday about a woman being denied boarding a KLM flight because she had a low fare ticket
First off, we need a link. Secondly, I smell BS big time here. Who said she couldn't board because she had a discounted ticket?
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): At last Jenny and her mom were allowed to board the flight because two Business Class passengers didn't show up at the gate.
So, she was upgraded to J?
Sorry, where is the story here?
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Knightsofmalta From Malta, joined Nov 2005, 569 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17329 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Do airlines prioritize pax that have purchased a cheap ticket less than standard fare paying pax?
To answer your question: yes they do. There can be some variation from airline to airline. Some give priority to FFP members and then look at the price. Other carriers give top priority to the premium paying passengers and then the FFP members. But in any case, the lowest paying tickets are always at the bottom of the food chain.
Mauiman31 From United States, joined Sep 2007, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17273 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Do airlines prioritize pax that have purchased a cheap ticket less than standard fare paying pax?
Our outbound to HNL was overbooked in July with several wanting standby and/or upgrades to F. I overheard one of the CSA's working the gate explain to pax that if there was any forced bumping to be done, because of no volunteers or no shows, it is prioritized and determined by class of cabin and date seat booked. So $$$ is involved in the decision, partially at least. This was on AA. In this instance from what I observed . . . no one got upgrades, because F was full and everybody in F showed. And they got everyone on board through a few no shows in coach and a couple volunteers who agreed to be rerouted. Not sure what comp. they gave them.
JBH From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17196 times:
That does sound like BS, possibly just an angry passenger.
However, being dutch and having worked for KLM, it does sound like something the dutch and KLM could come up with but then I am sure they can only do it if it is specifically mentioned during the purchase of the ticket, so it becomes sort of a stand-by ticket. Otherwise, it must be illegal.
Keep in mind this is only in an oversell situation where the passenger denied boarding did not have a seat assignment. They will not normally "unseat" a passenger already boarded in an oversell situation regardless of fare paid. My advice is to always get an advanced seat assignment whenever possible. Even if it's in the middle you can usually get a better one on the day of flight (if the flight is not oversold of course).
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17118 times:
Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 4): Yes, why wouldn't they? Why anger your higher paying passengers by denying them boarding? It makes perfect sense.
Could you enlighten me with regard to this ignorance please?
Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 10817 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17011 times:
Quoting LH4116 (Thread starter): Do airlines prioritize pax that have purchased a cheap ticket less than standard fare paying pax?
Yes, as they should. If a flight is oversold, airlines will look at a variety of factors to determine who to deny boarding to, including FF status, time of check-in, and class of service (not just F, C and Y but the various subsections of those classes like M, B, etc.). Those who have paid more are more likely not to be denied boarding.
It makes sense because those who make the airlines more money tend to be the business travellers with tigher schedules. If they get bumped and miss a meeting, they are less likely to use the same airline in the future, costing the airline revenue. Whereas if you bump a low-fare leisure traveller, they will likely fly the airline again as long as the ticket is cheap enough. And if they don't, there are plenty of other leisure travellers who will take their place.
Besides, if I book a higher class of fare than someone else, I should have priority to get on te plane assuming that I check in for the flight on time - I paid extra for that privilege.
Quoting Junction (Reply 6): Keep in mind this is only in an oversell situation where the passenger denied boarding did not have a seat assignment. They will not normally "unseat" a passenger already boarded in an oversell situation regardless of fare paid.
If you have a seat assignment, you're generally safe.
Breiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1192 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16903 times:
When a flight is overbooked, the gate personnel usually call for volonteers to take the next flight with some financial compensation.
If nobody volonteers, then passengers are selected from the cheapest fare.
The plane would not be able to depart otherwise.
Ikramerica From United States, joined May 2005, 15618 posts, RR: 49 Reply 10, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16747 times:
Quoting Breiz (Reply 9): The plane would not be able to depart otherwise.
We had a thread on this last week, different story, same problem.
The plane CERTAINLY could take off as long as enough pax were bumped, but there is no reason that it must be the lowest fare pax as you seem to imply.
People should not be penalized for buying far in advance, nor should they be penalized for buying a ticket at the price offered by the airline.
If this is going to be the policy, airlines should warn customers up front, not in some fine print somewhere, that "this fare is deeply discounted and does not assure you a seat on the aircraft. We routinely overbook our flights, and this fare will be among the first to be denied boarding."
Of course, if they did that, how many people would choose to book? They'd go to the competitor who didn't do this...
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Mir From United States, joined Jan 2004, 10817 posts, RR: 58 Reply 12, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16611 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10): If this is going to be the policy, airlines should warn customers up front, not in some fine print somewhere, that "this fare is deeply discounted and does not assure you a seat on the aircraft. We routinely overbook our flights, and this fare will be among the first to be denied boarding."
Of course, if they did that, how many people would choose to book? They'd go to the competitor who didn't do this...
But almost all competitors do this. Overbooking is standard in the industry. So you'd have nowhere else to go.
BSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 313 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16503 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 7):
Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 4):
Yes, why wouldn't they? Why anger your higher paying passengers by denying them boarding? It makes perfect sense.
Could you enlighten me with regard to this ignorance please?
Ignorance?
Airline is a business willing to make money, so they prioritize their passengers who bring them more revenue and less for the ones who bring them less revenue (often even less than the real cost of their seat).... SO, being rational, they give priority to pax that pay more as they are more valuable for the airline.... Simple, isnt it?
SpeedBirdA380 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16415 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 7): Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 4):
Yes, why wouldn't they? Why anger your higher paying passengers by denying them boarding? It makes perfect sense.
Could you enlighten me with regard to this ignorance please?
It make's "business sense". The company's want to keep their richer customer's who pay for higher fare's happy. Not very nice I agree but it happen's everywhere in life.
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DL767captain From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16277 times:
Something somewhat similar happened to me. My family had all used points for a first class ticket, and when we got to the plane it was overbooked so our family was bumped. when we asked why we were told that since we used points for our flight they were allowing the pax who paid $ take our seats. I can somewhat understand why they would rather $ paying pax have the seats but it is just ridiculous that we would be bumped for that reason. We were not given the option to be put on another flight (in first class, coach only) and when we asked for a refund for our ticket we were told we would not get all of it back because we had already flown one segment (which was only CHS-ATL and we would be in coach from ATL-SAN). we would get about 10K points back each, even though the tickets themselves cost around 60K!
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 11058 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16196 times:
Quoting Breiz (Reply 9): When a flight is overbooked, the gate personnel usually call for volonteers to take the next flight with some financial compensation.
If nobody volonteers, then passengers are selected from the cheapest fare.
The plane would not be able to depart otherwise.
Very true . I was on a flight last year and they were offering DBC to anyone that would go on another later flight. I offered but they told me I could not as I was Star Gold and could not be off loaded . LOL..... Sometimes these perks and priorities are a double edged sword.
Eghansen From United States, joined Nov 2007, 619 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16129 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 8): Yes, as they should. If a flight is oversold, airlines will look at a variety of factors to determine who to deny boarding to, including FF status, time of check-in, and class of service (not just F, C and Y but the various subsections of those classes like M, B, etc.). Those who have paid more are more likely not to be denied boarding.
Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 13): Airline is a business willing to make money, so they prioritize their passengers who bring them more revenue and less for the ones who bring them less revenue (often even less than the real cost of their seat).... SO, being rational, they give priority to pax that pay more as they are more valuable for the airline.... Simple, isnt it?
Do you people really know what you are talking about or are you just making up stuff as you go along?
First of all, when you check in for a flight, whether online, at the ticket counter, at an connecting city or at a gate, the computer system will give you a seat assignment (and boarding pass) if seats are available. If you have a boarding pass, you get on the airplane and are not bumped. None of this has anything to do with the price of your ticket.
Second, if a flight looks like it is going to oversell, the first thing the gate agent and ticket counter does is strictly enforce cutoff limits (which the airlines have lengthened lately).
For American Airlines the cutoff times are:
- Domestic - check-in 30 minutes before scheduled departure, at gate 15 miutes before scheduled departure.
- International - check-in 60 minutes before scheduled departure, at gate 30 minutes before scheduled departure.
If someone is bumped, the people who miss the cutoffs are bumped before people who were on time because the airline does not have to pay compensation to them. Again, it has nothing to do with the price of the ticket.
Third, in the US airlines are required to ask for volunteers first. If a person with a $1000 ticket volunteers to give up his seat for a passenger with a $200 ticket, so be it. The person with the $200 ticket gets on the airplane and the $1000 ticket stays behind. That is US law.
Fourthly, when a flight is overbooked, the agent working the gate has no idea whether the flight will oversell or not. It is dependent on whether incoming connections are on time, whether everybody shows up and whether anybody shows up after cutoff times. Probably 90% of flights overbooked do not actually oversell because the airlines have become very sophisticated in calculating how much overbooking is likely on a given flight.
By the time the oversell occurs (i.e. when one more passenger shows up before cutoff than there are seats on the airplane) all the other passengers have already boarded the airplane and are sitting strapped in their seats. Regardless of how much they have paid for their ticket, the people on the airplane are not removed.
It is nice to imagine that the airlines are so devious as to bump people by ticket price, but it is impossible to do in practice. If you have an airplane with 250 seats and end up with one oversold passenger, there is no way an airline can pick and chose the passenger they prefer. You have no idea until the last minute whether anyone will be bumped at all.
By the way, if the gate agent at KLM was really on the ball, he/she would have gone on board the aircraft and picked out the two best-dressed, nicest looking passengers he could find, bump them up into J class and stick the two whiners in the back where they belong. They were probably just late for the flight anyway.
Rampart From United States, joined Aug 2005, 1200 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16113 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10): People should not be penalized for buying far in advance, nor should they be penalized for buying a ticket at the price offered by the airline.
If this is going to be the policy, airlines should warn customers up front, not in some fine print somewhere, that "this fare is deeply discounted and does not assure you a seat on the aircraft. We routinely overbook our flights, and this fare will be among the first to be denied boarding."
I agree. What does an airline prefer, and why to they allow us to book early? The lower fare seems to be an incentive to book earlier, perhaps the airline can plan better (but what exactly does anything more than a week give them?). Yet, the very passengers they provide the early booking incentive are the low ones on the ladder when it comes to forfieting an overbooked seat (which wasn't overbooked when they made their purchase in advance). Airline class elitism makes business sense, but how it comes about is bass-ackwards.
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