PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 27 Posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
Quote: Boeing Delivers Super Hornet Proposal to Brazil For F-X2 Competition
ST. LOUIS, Aug. 15, 2008 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] delivered a detailed proposal July 30 offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Brazilian Air Force as part of Brazil's F-X2 fighter competition.
"International interest in the combat-proven Super Hornet continues to increase, and Boeing is honored Brazil is considering the Super Hornet to meet its near-term defense requirements," said Bob Gower, F/A-18 and EA-18 Programs vice president, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems.
Boeing received a Request for Information from the government of Brazil on June 12. The stated initial requirement is for 36 aircraft, with the potential for up to 120 aircraft.
The Super Tucano is currently operated by the Brazilian and Colombian Air Forces, for successfully training pilots and high-precision light attack procedures on internal security missions. The Embraer proposal chosen by the FACh includes a broad Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) package and an advanced Training and Operation Support System (TOSS), covering not only the aircraft but, also, ground support stations.
Seems like the Super Tucanos are taking off in export orders. Colombia's successful and widely reported attack on FARC rebels inside Ecuador territory might have turned heads.
[Edited 2008-08-15 16:49:14]
“When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.” - Frederic Bastiat
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3140 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter): Interesting development. Note that Lockheed's F-16 was dropped from the F-X2 competition, replaced by its F-35.
If LockMart could control the JSF's spiraling cost and meet the FAB's technology transfer and required in-service date, then it would be in for a good fight. Otherwise, it would be a free-for-all with the Super Bug, Rafale, Typhoon and the Su-30.....
Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter): Seems like the Super Tucanos are taking off in export orders. Colombia's successful and widely reported attack on FARC rebels inside Ecuador territory might have turned heads.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 324 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3084 times:
I think you could write off the F-35 the US would never transfer the technology, they may but I would be very suprised if they did. I think it will come down between the Superhornet and the Gripen, the Superhornet being the more capable of the two but also more expensive unless they sign of a deal like Australia did. The SU-30 may be in the mix but it just depends on how Brazil reacts to the Recent Russian agressions I am not sure Brazil wants to be on the US naughty list since it pretty much inevitable now that Russian and US relations are pretty much down the toilet and will be for a while. I dont know their point of view on it so it would be hard for me to judge.
EBJ1248650 From United States, joined Jun 2005, 1058 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (3 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2983 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2): I think it will come down between the Superhornet and the Gripen, the Superhornet being the more capable of the two but also more expensive unless they sign of a deal like Australia did.
Why wouldn't the Rafale be in the running? Brazil doesn't strike me as a country that has to lean towards the least expensive airplane and apparently they don't need to. The fact they're considering the F-35 suggests very strongly money isn't a big issue. So, the Rafale is a potential competitor as is the Typhoon, in its multi-mission configuration.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 324 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (3 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2981 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 3): Why wouldn't the Rafale be in the running? Brazil doesn't strike me as a country that has to lean towards the least expensive airplane and apparently they don't need to. The fact they're considering the F-35 suggests very strongly money isn't a big issue. So, the Rafale is a potential competitor as is the Typhoon, in its multi-mission configuration.
The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either. I have nothing against the Rafale, they havent been sucessfull in exporting it to anyone. The typhoon is about as close as you can get to an F-22 unfortunatly they are getting to the point where is about as expensive. Sorry I doubt either plane stands a chance. They were considering the F-35 the last time on the original FX program and it was scrapped because of lack of funds..dont let it fool you Money is very much an object in this bid.
Baron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1286 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2962 times:
Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.
I think Brazil should give serious consideration to the F18-EF, add afew F18Gs to the mix and orther the buddy fueling system as well. 36 of those, set up as 3 squadrons would finally but the FAB on the map in South America.
I'd even go as far as saying that they should order the full carrier set up for the planes. Who knows, in the future Brazil may field something like the British CVF (sans STOVL ramps but with proper catapult/traps).
I would not order more than 36 though. The next 36 should be F35Bs.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 27 Reply 6, posted (3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2870 times:
Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5): Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.
Yup. The only problem I can see would be the technology transfer. They may be able o work around that.
The Rafale apparently has radar technology that has been described as "a technological dead-end". That's a very big negative, though I still think the type has good chances.
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2): I think you could write off the F-35 the US would never transfer the technology
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2037 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2843 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4): The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either.
I believe Rafale was selected by Morocco but an astonishing faux pas on the price blew the deal.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6): The Rafale apparently has radar technology that has been described as "a technological dead-end". That's a very big negative, though I still think the type has good chances.
EASA is coming to Rafale, reportedly scheduled for 2011 in a 2007 Flight aticle by Jon Lake.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 324 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2818 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 7): I believe Rafale was selected by Morocco but an astonishing faux pas on the price blew the deal.
So again it didn't win the contract.
Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5): Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.
I think Brazil should give serious consideration to the F18-EF, add afew F18Gs to the mix and orther the buddy fueling system as well. 36 of those, set up as 3 squadrons would finally but the FAB on the map in South America.
I agree I think the F-18 E/F would be the best selection for them.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 2802 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2797 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2): The SU-30 may be in the mix but it just depends on how Brazil reacts to the Recent Russian agressions I am not sure Brazil wants to be on the US naughty list since it pretty much inevitable now that Russian and US relations are pretty much down the toilet and will be for a while. I dont know their point of view on it so it would be hard for me to judge.
Yes, it would be a tough call, especially since Brazil's neighbor to the North acquired some and is rumored to be after more, including tanker, transport and ISR assets.....
Baron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1286 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2773 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 7): EASA is coming to Rafale, reportedly scheduled for 2011
I'm sorry but the Rafale's planned AESA radar is a kludge. What they are proporting to do can't work well. They are proposing to keep the same decade+ olde radar backend and only change the antenna front end. They are proposing to maintain the small nose diameter, which will limite the number of array elements and their power deu to heat. They are not proposing ANY upgrade in the ship's power to drive the AESA array.
I'm sorry, but this is a joke. Unless Rafale upgrades power, puts up a bigger nose and licenses something like a Raytheon AESA, it will never be competitive with the FA18-E/F, the F15C/E/K-AESA, let alone the F22/F35.
AESA and LPI communications, by themselves or together with LO technology are the key technologies that will make a fighter viable in the next 40 years. That is the FAB horizon.
Why does the FAB has this BS on technology transfer. The only think they should care about is ability to integrate new weapons by themselves. They just need access to the weapons integration SW/HW interfaces.
All else is BS. Best to have the best fighter than the technology transfer for junk fighters.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (3 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2665 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 11): Any chance of a follow-on order to replace the various vintages of A-4's they are flying off that carrier of theirs?....the ex-Foch.
I don't see it as a priority for them. They need to focus on renovating the fleet, and my bet is they'll go for second hand aircraft when they do replace the A4s. But who knows, a follow on order could happen.
[Edited 2008-08-18 19:47:33]
“When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.” - Frederic Bastiat
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 1822 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2650 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4): The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either. I
The Rafale has to be the top contender in this race. Not only is the Brazilian Air Force already a significant Dassault customer but a) Brazil will not want to go with a U.S. weapons system if they can avoid it due to the history of US-Brazilian relations, in particular military cooperation and b) it is perhaps the best multirole fighter out there on a $-per-capability basis. Since the Su-30, despite being a very capable platform (although a sub-par weapons system) seems to be reserved for pariah states and the Gripen is too small I would say the Rafale has a very good chance of getting the contract.
Oh, and before you talk about "backyard" and stuff like that please do remember that the only reason the F-15 beat the Rafale in Korea was political influence.
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Baron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1286 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2587 times:
I agree the Rafale has the inside track to win this contract, but I disagree that it is the best fighter for the FAB. Brazil is a very large country. They don't have a lot of AWACS. Their CINDACTA ground radar systems leaves much to be desired. They need to be able to send fighters up with powerful AESA radars that can operate autonomously.
No one, other than the US fighters have fielded full AESA radars, nor is there a clear path for it.
Brazil needs F-18E/Fs now (36-40) and F35Bs later (36-40) with the AESA radars, Slammer Ds, AIM9X, SDBs and a few LGBs. That is what they need. Fits them to the T.
That is also what Australia needs (similar country side), and apparently what they will get.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 324 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2427 times:
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13): Oh, and before you talk about "backyard" and stuff like that please do remember that the only reason the F-15 beat the Rafale in Korea was political influence.
That and the fact the F-15 has a more powerfull radar, can carry more ordinance and has a longer range.
Baron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1286 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (3 months 12 hours ago) and read 2345 times:
Whatever they do, they beter do it fast. The FAB is seriously outclassed when it comes to front line fighters (even by some much smaller/poorer neighbors).
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