Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
International Student Loans, Australia  
User currently offlineMEA310 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2002, 660 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4056 times:

Dear all

I have applied to the University of Sydney for my postgraduate studies and received my firm offer. I have also applied to the scholarship scheme offered by the Australian government, the Endeavour Awards and I'm expecting an answer by late October.
However, I'm looking into the possibility of student loans should my application to the scholarship end up in failure. I googled fairly enough seeking information about international student loans to study in Australia and couldn't find anything concrete.
I would very much appreciate any information or insights anyone can provide me with.

Many thanks,


MEA310


M5 Fastest Sedan On Earth
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8463 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4051 times:

I'm not aware of anyone who offers student loans other then the government via the HELP program. Give http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/ a go, it might be able to point you in the right direction.

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

What subject will you study?

I suggest you read up on Australian skilled migration even if you do not wish to migrate. Just humour Dept Immigration, they are quite keen on skilled migrants!!

Start here:
http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/index.htm

But look at some of the other sites if you Google Skilled Migration Australia - I probably cannot replicate what you find off Aus Google, but you might find some useful information.


User currently offlineDocPepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

MEA310, what kind of course are you doing?

I myself did a postgraduate course in UNSW and was generally disappointed. It was full of students from China who had a very poor command of English. In fact during my first lecture I was shocked that everyone around me was speaking Chinese. In group discussions and projects I was always the one doing most of the work because the rest of my coursemates would more often than not have such a poor command of English that I had to rewrite everything they did.

Universities in Australia are generally chronically underfunded and require foreign students to pay full fees to boost their coffers. Many international students especially those from third world Asia just use study in Australia as a route to obtaining Australian Permanent Residence.

In fact, UNSW capitalised on this. Somewhere in 2005, the Department of Immigration introduced a rule mandating that international students complete at least 2 years of postgraduate studies before they can apply for PR in Australia under the "skilled migration" programme. My course in UNSW was initially 18 months. However they decided to introduce a "Master of Commerce - Extension" programme that lasted 2 years - to enable international students to exploit this loophole to gain PR status.

The sad thing is - most of the smart, ambitious international students in my cohort got pretty jaded and didn't intend to stay in Australia after they completed their degree. Those who barely got by and had an abysmal command of English were the ones who stayed behind and have since received Australian PR. And can they find decent jobs? No. One of my former classmates from China is working as a bank teller in some bank in Sydney's Chinatown. And she has a "Masters" in Accounting from UNSW.

Many of my lecturers also loathed the way the whole system was turning out and did say that there was pressure to pass international students no matter how badly they did as it was such students that effectively paid their salaries.

Mind you - the quality of teaching and of the academics was top notch. However as the saying goes - Rubbish in, Rubbish out.

What I learned in UNSW was perhaps beneficial for my own personal development and learning, but the Masters degree I got was not recognised in Singapore as a real masters and did not affect my starting salary or progression in my career. In fact, many Singaporean companies and MNCs operating in Singapore do not have very high regard for Australian degrees, because they are known to accept international students who don't make the mark and pass them just because they pay hefty school fees.

In fact, many Singaporean companies and MNCs operating in Singapore don't even recognise the degrees from some 2nd tier Aussie universities as real degrees, and start graduates from such universities on a polytechnic diploma pay scale, which is usually 20-25% lower than a graduate's starting salary.

This is a real pity because not too long ago, Australian universities were top notch and produced graduates of very high quality. And with so many unqualified international students exploiting Aussie universities to get PR, it certainly isn't doing the country any favours in solving its chornic skills shortage.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4015 times:



Quoting DocPepz (Reply 3):
I myself did a postgraduate course in UNSW and was generally disappointed. It was full of students from China who had a very poor command of English. In fact during my first lecture I was shocked that everyone around me was speaking Chinese. In group discussions and projects I was always the one doing most of the work because the rest of my coursemates would more often than not have such a poor command of English that I had to rewrite everything they did.

Excellent post DocPepz. It might do some good if you also sent pretty much that text to the Sydney paper, the Sydney Morning Herald since your were at U NSW.

letters@smh.com.au

It might benefit MEA.

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 3):
they are known to accept international students who don't make the mark and pass them just because they pay hefty school fees

Some have fought that system. Ted Steele for instance.
http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent...gi?article=1009&context=artspapers
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s343143.htm

Oddly enough, Biology at Wollongong would be one of the locations with better standards. Which is one reason why I asked which discipline.

It is always open to overseas students to make a "career" independent of same state overseas students.

The problem for Chinese students is that there are so many OTHER Chinese students that it is easier to speak Chinese as their main language and then they struggle more in English.

But other language groups do much the same. A group of overseas students from a range of countries can be very effective, they get support from each other, but HAVE to communicate in English.

Sorry to hear your degree is not recognised, that is rather unusual, care to IM me?

I well remember the first Resources Committee meeting at a particular University after the full fee overseas student policy was announced (back in about 1987 I think). Most of the problems you list were forecast ON THAT DAY, but were still happily ignored.


User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 837 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3997 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
Excellent post DocPepz. It might do some good if you also sent pretty much that text to the Sydney paper, the Sydney Morning Herald since your were at U NSW.

Good Idea Baroque. Maybe he should send that letter to Julia Gillard as well. Julia.Gillard.MP@aph.gov.au She is heading up the Education Revolution in our great nation. Although I heard she was pretty busy arranging the "computer for every student" policy. You know the one where not one computer has been installed yet.



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineDocPepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Baroque - I have PM-ed you.

It is a pity how tertiary education in Australia has evolved because from the 1960s to the early 1980s, Australia and New Zealand attracted the best and brightest students from Asia, who were usually from humble backgrounds and given government (either Asian govt or Australian govt) sponsored scholarships to pursue a degree down under.

Many of Singapore's ministers, senior civil servants and top business leaders studied in Aussie universities in the 1960s and 1970s who eventually returned home to help in the development of the country. It has helped to build great people to people and govt to govt relations between Singapore and Australia. The former CEO of SQ Cheong Choong Kong (1984 to 2003) was a ANU graduate.

Academics I know in Australia and NZ have told me that in the past, whenever they saw an Asian name on the exam script, they would be really pleased for all they would need to do is go "tick tick tick tick". However these days whenever they see an Asian name on an exam script, they've to wreck their brains out as to what on earth the student is trying to say, and struggle to think of novel ways to pass them when they really should be getting an F.

It is true that unlike many parts of the world, especially financial centres, success in Australia isn't measured by being able to get a degree. With so many universities in Australia for its population (Perth has a resident population of 1.8m and has 4 universities. SIngapore has a resident population of 4.6 million and has 3 universities) I think there is a graduate glut there - which explains why graduate salaries aren't significantly higher than blue collar trades. In fact plumbers and tradespeople make far more than the average university graduate in Australia, and the average starting salary of the high 40s to 50s a year for most graduate jobs is not significantly higher than the annual salary of an unskilled labourer (especially in WA).

As wages are set in a free labour market, this would indicate that the market in Australia places little value/premium on the average university graduate compared to a blue collar worker - unsurprising seeing the number of graduates and their quality out there!

At least a sweeper would be immediately productive. Some of these substandard international students who can't string a sentence of English together to save their grandfathers' lives would probably bring more harm to any potential employer than any good!


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3968 times:



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 5):
Although I heard she was pretty busy arranging the "computer for every student" policy. You know the one where not one computer has been installed yet.

I begin to wonder if it will end up as the "computer IN every student" policy administered in a fairly painful fashion! I think we should wait and see how the thread develops and then copy it out to a word doc and send it to Julia. Just the link by itself might not be enough - will you or should I do it?

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 6):
Baroque - I have PM-ed you.

Ta and I have answered. Another post that is too true to be comfortable reading DocPepz. The only reservation is the timing. I think matters were OK through to about the late 80s, although it is the case that the Postgrad scholarships were becoming more restricted through the 80s.

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 6):
Academics I know in Australia and NZ have told me that in the past, whenever they saw an Asian name on the exam script, they would be really pleased for all they would need to do is go "tick tick tick tick". However these days whenever they see an Asian name on an exam script, they've to wreck their brains out as to what on earth the student is trying to say, and struggle to think of novel ways to pass them when they really should be getting an F.

That is pretty close to true, but what was even more important was the individual consideration given at that stage. I remember a case cited by an ANU staff member at a meeting held by what is now AusAID about a ?Malaysian girl who always produced exemplary papers but was a disaster in exams. She explained she did not have time. After the usual, "well you all have the same time" suspicions were raised that the girl was getting her assignments done by an Aus person. She further explained that in answering she wrote out her answers in either Malayu or Chinese (cannot remember that detail) and then translated into English. Then she took her English and improved it in a third or fourth version. So they ran another examination to see what happened with 10 hours instead of 3. And at the end, there were the various copies and the final version was the sort of excellent work that she had in her assignments. Strike one for the patient staff member.

However in the days of the web and clipboard I doubt if such niceties could exist.

The dangers of accepting students with poor English were well and truly pointed out, but by and large ignored.

It is important to emphasise that the trouble there lies not with those responsible for organizing and conducting the English testing - some of those ESL tests left me floundering - but with Universities bypassing the tests.

You have defined the problems pretty well DocPepz, any ideas about the cure except to find some VCs who are less money grubbing. Corporatizing the Universities and making them seek their own money has certainly produced the danger of a severe backfire - well already there has been one but the full results are yet to filter through. Sigh.

The Ted Steele case is a lesson in the dangers. Getting a balance between students and staff is a delicate matter at the best of times. Push funding in between and you are set for disaster and that is pretty much what Docpepz so eloquently describes. It is frightening for me to read how accurately his view tracks from one side of the problem with mine from some years ago on the other side of it.


User currently offlineMEA310 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2002, 660 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3945 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
What subject will you study?



Quoting DocPepz (Reply 3):
MEA310, what kind of course are you doing?

I recently got my bachelor's degree in International Business Management. However, the subject of study I applied for is Peace & Conflict Resolution. I found this course of study to suit me the best for my future professional life given my interest in world affairs and the fact that I live in a region of conflicts.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
I suggest you read up on Australian skilled migration even if you do not wish to migrate. Just humour Dept Immigration, they are quite keen on skilled migrants!!

To tell you the truth, I am interested in migrating to Australia. Lebanon is not the kind of country where one can dream of a career progress and relaxed living; we have one of the lowest per capita income in the world, around US $5000/year, not to mention the high cost of living and many other inconveniences. I love my country but at at the end of the day I have to secure my future and live in a decent environment with the least of my rights preserved and the least of my needs fulfilled.

Baroque, concerning the migration option; on a side note, a friend of mine recently opened up the Sea Sweet shop in Parramatta, it's a famous Lebanese sweets chain; and he said he might sponsor me for a work visa should my university option fail. I have a question though. He didn't give me an exact date about when he might sponsor me, so here's my question: is it possible that I file an application as a skilled migrant now instead of wasting time even though he might sponsor me later on? Would there be any conflict in the application process or would the sponsoring actually speed up the process?

Many thanks for all your replies


MEA310



M5 Fastest Sedan On Earth
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3930 times:



Quoting MEA310 (Reply 9):
I have a question though. He didn't give me an exact date about when he might sponsor me, so here's my question: is it possible that I file an application as a skilled migrant now instead of wasting time even though he might sponsor me later on? Would there be any conflict in the application process or would the sponsoring actually speed up the process?

I will seek some advice and contact you by IM. Definitely a question on notice. There used to be quite strange rules about what you could apply for inside and outside the country. Some still apply.

Did you look at the Dept Immigration website? It is as well you look and you might notice things that would pass me by.

One thing I do know. If you have had experience with someone migrating here, do take the trouble to learn it all again, as it changes quite markedly both with time, and with the individual. No two end up being the same.

Meanwhile is the course:

Int'l Law & Int'l Relations - 9240 ??

Bit of a laugh there. I was trying to find it blind, no good at all. So I tried the search and no good again. So Advanced Search - AHA. I found it under Peace, but just as I clicked the search icon, I noticed that instead of entries the website has

"Search for entires that search text content"

Oh dear, UNSW. All DocPepz complaints come home to roost! You would think they would check. Entires is bad enough, but what does "that search text content" mean when it is at home. Or perhaps you get 12 units of credit for noticing the errors.


User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Wow. What an interesting an informative thread this is! One guess as to which uni I currently attend  Smile .

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 3):

It's sad for me to hear of the perceived value of an Australian degree. I'm sure the recent UNSWAsia farce has not helped with perceptions. I guess it would be all too easy to blame UNSW for making degrees too accessible for full fee paying students, but then again, UNSW needs to get a decent amount of funds some how. If the government isn't going to fund them then it's no wonder they have turned to full fee paying students as a revenue source.

Unfortunately, one thing I have discovered is that the endeavour of gaining knowledge is hardly the "accessible to all" Utopian concept we would like it to be. UNSW is aiming to become a research intensive organisation, and as I am learning, research costs big money.

More money equals more and better facilities equals more research output equals more research grants equals a better reputation for UNSW. Unfortunately, if you don't have the facilities in the first place you cannot do the research.

I guess it is fortunate however, that I am in the engineering faculty. Any issues with language are perhaps less relevant when you are dealing with numbers most of the time. Nonetheless, I do often overhear many people talking about the process of gaining PR in Australia, and not just students from Asia mind you.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3916 times:



Quoting JetMech (Reply 11):
I guess it would be all too easy to blame UNSW for making degrees too accessible for full fee paying students, but then again, UNSW needs to get a decent amount of funds some how. If the government isn't going to fund them then it's no wonder they have turned to full fee paying students as a revenue source.



Quoting JetMech (Reply 11):
Nonetheless, I do often overhear many people talking about the process of gaining PR in Australia, and not just students from Asia mind you.

Sadly: Cost of PR (permanent residence visa) = Cost of tertiary education course.

It would be more honest if the Aus government made a $40,000 charge for a PR visa and gave the resulting funds to the Universities! Cut out the many, many middlemen including some rather shonky Australian University departments.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 11):
Wow. What an interesting an informative thread this is! One guess as to which uni I currently attend

What can I say except UNSW is not what it used to be, and that is certainly not your fault.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 11):
I guess it would be all too easy to blame UNSW for making degrees too accessible for full fee paying students, but then again, UNSW needs to get a decent amount of funds some how. If the government isn't going to fund them then it's no wonder they have turned to full fee paying students as a revenue source.

As DocPepz suggests, this is not a sustainable strategy and the outcome is a truly disastrous one.

I do not know the ins and outs of the failed UNSW Singapore effort. But I am willing to bet it could and should have succeeded.

One of the unintended outcomes from BOTH the full fee students concept AND the commercialize university research brainstorm was that the Peter principle started to play out in spades. So University staff who were hopeless at normal university tasks, such as running the higher degrees system or something that needed competence were suddenly propelled to positions overseeing full fee students or university commercial research, and sometimes BOTH for gods sake. The results are evident in this thread.

Back when UNSW was arguably the best U in NSW, Unisearch used to charge something like 15% or 20% for research tasks completed under its aegis - and it was a useful organization. The last I heard of a University research arm (not UNSW) it wanted 50% for doing a heck of a lot less than Unisearch used to do.

The education revolution should start by getting rid of half the management structures put into place between about 1988 and 2000 - rough estimate of dates. That would cut the cost of the damned things by a considerable amount.

When CSIRO was rquired to generate a fixed amount of its income externally, the most common method has been to put their staff on to the sort of consulting work done by existing private companies. If you look at CSIRO internal cost structures, you find that commonly their charge out rates cover only about 50% of the actual cost to do the work.

The net result is that CSIRO spends a very high proportion of its time on consulting work for companies that is essentially subsidized to the extent of about 50% by the main CSIRO budget. In other words the outside funding simply exhausts the federal state funding on doing work for companies in part because CSIRO is such an expensive organization to run. There is almost no net gain of research not directed to the benefit of specific companies, and of course the results are company confidential.

The story with full fee students is not much different, except that the fees from the full fee students have been used for extensive building programs. Something around 30% of the fees actually goes to teaching DEPARTMENTS and of this probably only two thirds to half is directed to teaching those students. Some courses can be calculated to have had around 5% of fees directly used on teaching. Some of the other 70% does cover libraries and necessary administration, but the administration is heavily loaded these days. Quite a bit goes into building funds and other more creative lines of activity. It is probably this money that UNSW "lost" on the Asian adventure.

Cost plus 50% always seems a bit expensive to this near Scot, but cost plus 100% is definitely over the top. So how is cost plus 130%?

Give them a good kick from me Jetmech and good luck the pair of you.  eek 


User currently offlineMEA310 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2002, 660 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3885 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
I will seek some advice and contact you by IM. Definitely a question on notice. There used to be quite strange rules about what you could apply for inside and outside the country. Some still apply.

I would really appreciate it if you'd get back to me on this matter by IM-ing me.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Meanwhile is the course:

Int'l Law & Int'l Relations - 9240 ??

No, I applied to the University of Sydney and not UNSW. Here's a direct link to my intended coursework program http://www.usyd.edu.au/courses/index..._of_Peace_and_Conflict_Studies_141

MEA310



M5 Fastest Sedan On Earth
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3861 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
The education revolution should start by getting rid of half the management structures put into place between about 1988 and 2000



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Give them a good kick from me Jetmech

The latest pea-brained idea for the engineering faculty at least, is the proposed "engineering precinct" scheme. Apparently, there is a large sum of money earmarked for this project, which will basically involve the coalescing of all the engineering faculties and laboratories into one massive building!

I'm somewhat unenthusiastic about the whole scheme, as it seems to be another case of "visual progress" triumphing over "actual progress". The amount of direct and indirect cost of such a scheme would be huge, and all for no real benefit towards the goal of promoting research.

The logical choice would be to leave everything as is, and spend a far smaller amount of money on new, more, and better equipment for the laboratories. Equipment that actually enhances the process of research!

Alas, logic is the last thing on the minds of management types looking to leave behind a visually spectacular legacy.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3854 times:



Quoting MEA310 (Reply 12):

No, I applied to the University of Sydney and not UNSW. Here's a direct link to my intended coursework program http://www.usyd.edu.au/courses/index..._of_Peace_and_Conflict_Studies_141

Aha so we have been kicking the wrong university although Sydney has always needed a good kicking! Have to say though, that link is more impressive than the UNSW one I found, at least they tell you who will be lecturing.

Will get back later, gotta rush.

Regards


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
International Student Loan Help For Uk CitizeninUS posted Sun Sep 9 2007 19:32:50 by Zahidf1
Student Loans And Bad Credit posted Fri Sep 7 2007 23:20:32 by S5FA170
International Student Loan Help posted Sun Sep 2 2007 02:53:24 by Kovi17
Questions About Obtaining Student Loans posted Mon Oct 23 2006 02:17:58 by VonRichtofen
International Student At A US University/College posted Thu Feb 3 2005 02:04:54 by British767
International Student Working In UK posted Sat Mar 6 2004 00:17:31 by DFWLandingPath
Australia Student Visa posted Sat Oct 5 2002 21:31:33 by Bambicruz
How's Australia posted Mon Jul 14 2008 21:04:23 by Blackbird
Pope To Australia posted Mon Jul 7 2008 07:13:29 by UndaMaris
What Model Of International Truck Is This? posted Wed Feb 20 2008 14:04:00 by Falstaff