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New Ford Cop Cruisers Dethrone Crown Vic  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4919 times:

Interesting video:

http://money.cnn.com/video/pf/2012/0...pf-w-new-ford-police-cars.cnnmoney

Shows both the Taurus and Explorer based police vehicles.

Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?

Interesting statement that the suspension and engine tuning computers are tweaked for police use.

Is that a common thing nowadays?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Stand by for Superfly's hissyfit and apology of the crown vic and everything that has a V8, a rigid transaxle, a body-on-frame and possibly wood panels.

  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6157 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4892 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?


Considering that Ford's modern V-6 engines have more horsepower than the 4.6 V-8, I would say so .

The regular 3.5 V-6 has 265 and the ecoboost has 365 horse power and that isn't the police model. I assume the police models will deliver more power.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2012-ford-police-interceptor-car-news

The 4.6 liter V-8 only had 250 horsepower in its police form.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/2011fleetshowroom/2011-CrVicPoliceInt-specs.asp?EV=0



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6157 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4885 times:
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Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Stand by for Superfly's hissyfit and apology of the crown vic and everything that has a V8, a rigid transaxle, a body-on-frame and possibly wood panels.

I agree with the Fly. I own a 2008 Lincoln Town Car and used to have a 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 2):
Considering that Ford's modern V-6 engines have more horsepower than the 4.6 V-8, I would say so .

Cool! Thanks for the info!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedesertjets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7801 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4881 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?

Interesting statement that the suspension and engine tuning computers are tweaked for police use.

Is that a common thing nowadays?

The CVPI was never a fast car. And police work isn't all high speed pursuit either. That said the V6 powered Taurus is more powerful and likely quicker than the old CVPI. On the old Crown Vic production lines they did a special run once or twice a year when they cranked out the CVPIs, since the P71 package had specific modifications that couldn't be easily done in line with the civilian production cars.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Stand by for Superfly's hissyfit and apology of the crown vic and everything that has a V8, a rigid transaxle, a body-on-frame and possibly wood panels.

I had a 2011 Crown Vic as a rental last fall while my car was in the shop getting its timing belt replaced. The car is completely anachronistic and outdated. But I totally get the appeal, however I wouldn't want one for my daily. The reason that Police (and fleet/taxi) liked the CV was because it hadn't changed in basically forever -- the last major update was around 2002 or 03. It was a known quantity and cheap to buy and maintain. And it didn't help that most competing vehicles, the W-body based Impala, the Tahoe and the Charger, weren't all that great of a choice or expensive (I do love the police package Tahoe). I fully suspect Ford will still capture the lion's share of the police market with the Taurus based cruiser -- Ford knows the market the best and will do what it can to ensure the confidence of the police departments that buy from it.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?

Yes, considering that the Crown Vic was never powerful and very porky.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Is that a common thing nowadays?

Police cars have pretty much always had additional cooling and heavier duty suspensions, not unlike a towing package. Some car companies used to have the police package available to normal buyers, which could boost performance though sometimes at a cost of style and creature comforts.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

The first time I went to Laguna Seca, my dad and I rented a Crown Vic. We were shooting for a rented Corvette, but there weren't any available. Anyway, it was antiquated even in 2005, but there was a certain appeal- thing was gigantic and rode nicely. Plus, through the first two seconds of acceleration I could almost hear a V-8 rumble and feel like I was A Big Deal. Then the transmission whine would kick in and it just felt like I was in a New York City cab. Which I was.

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

I ran across this interesting link:

The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement (by LOT767-300ER Mar 15 2010 in Non Aviation)

Quoting desertjets (Reply 5):
The CVPI was never a fast car. And police work isn't all high speed pursuit either.

I guess I've watched too many episodes of C*O*P*S! 

Come to think of it, though, I have noticed how the Crown Vic strained when in pursuits on that show.

And that show does show it isn't all pursuits, except when they do pursuit specials.

Quoting desertjets (Reply 5):

I had a 2011 Crown Vic as a rental last fall while my car was in the shop getting its timing belt replaced. The car is completely anachronistic and outdated. But I totally get the appeal, however I wouldn't want one for my daily.

Well said. I too understand the appeal but would not want to have it as a daily driver.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Police cars have pretty much always had additional cooling and heavier duty suspensions, not unlike a towing package.

Yeah, a friend of mine used to buy used police vehicles for this very reason.

I just didn't know the tweaking now extends to the computer software for the suspension and engines too, but it makes sense that it would.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
The first time I went to Laguna Seca, my dad and I rented a Crown Vic. We were shooting for a rented Corvette, but there weren't any available. Anyway, it was antiquated even in 2005, but there was a certain appeal- thing was gigantic and rode nicely. Plus, through the first two seconds of acceleration I could almost hear a V-8 rumble and feel like I was A Big Deal. Then the transmission whine would kick in and it just felt like I was in a New York City cab.

I also ended up with a similar experience, but it was a big black rented Town Car in the mid 90s.

One additional nice aspect was that other drivers tended to make room for you because you were in a big car, which was nice since I was driving in the eternal traffic snafu that is the Washington DC area.

I was going to a wedding so I was dressed in a suit and a tie, so maybe other drivers thought there was someone important in back!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6632 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4794 times:

I still predict the Taurus Police Interceptor will flop and the Charger will become the new #1 police cruiser on the market. While the Taurus offers AWD, it is still an FWD-based platform.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?

As I understand it (and have been explained by a few cops), you don't catch bad guys with a V6, 8, 12, or GE90-115B. You catch them by radioing on ahead and setting up a roadblock in front of them. No car can outrun the speed of light.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7242 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
As I understand it (and have been explained by a few cops), you don't catch bad guys with a V6, 8, 12, or GE90-115B. You catch them by radioing on ahead and setting up a roadblock in front of them. No car can outrun the speed of light.


And there are not many that out run helicopters too. Besides for the odd stolen luxury car or crazy rich guy or wealthy drug dealer pursuit when is the last time anyone has seen a police chase involving a fast car?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
I still predict the Taurus Police Interceptor will flop and the Charger will become the new #1 police cruiser on the market. While the Taurus offers AWD, it is still an FWD-based platform.


I have been noticing more and more Chargers for police all over the place. Right now I agree, we will see how this turns out for ford.

While talking about it, nothing beats out a Tahoe or suburban police car, especially a black on black tinted one with tons of lights hidden all over the car. Those are the best.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinedesertjets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7801 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4726 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
I still predict the Taurus Police Interceptor will flop and the Charger will become the new #1 police cruiser on the market. While the Taurus offers AWD, it is still an FWD-based platform.


I have been noticing more and more Chargers for police all over the place. Right now I agree, we will see how this turns out for ford.

I'd disagree. If the Charger was really going to steal the market share from Ford police departments wouldn't have stockpiled 2011 CVPIs. From what I've read over the interwebz is that the reliability and durability of the Charger is not so great. Though the 2011+ cars may be better. I think many people are making much ado about nothing over FWD. NYPD has been moving increasingly towards the 9C1 Impala and it is hard to picture an environment more punishing that the streets of NYC.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Both models shown are V6-based: is that enough umph to catch the bad guys?

As I understand it (and have been explained by a few cops), you don't catch bad guys with a V6, 8, 12, or GE90-115B. You catch them by radioing on ahead and setting up a roadblock in front of them. No car can outrun the speed of light.

On the speed thing. My city's police department bought 5 or 6 2010 Charger's with the Hemi for freeway patrol duty. I remember on the news the officers that drive them say the performance difference on the freeway when picking off speeders is like night and day between the Hemi Charger and CVPI. It also doesn't hurt that the Chargers are white, unmarked vehicles and don't have a light bar dragging in the breeze.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

Old news.
There is a Revelation that we discussed this in great detail 2 years ago. So post #8

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Stand by for Superfly's hissyfit and apology of the crown vic and everything that has a V8, a rigid transaxle, a body-on-frame and possibly wood panels.

No cop cruisers had wood-grain side panels.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Old news.

Yeah, old news, but I thought the video was worth sharing.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3809 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
No cop cruisers had wood-grain side panels.

Yeah, but admit you wish they did...
 Big grin

[Edited 2012-03-23 15:24:37]


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently onlineCplKlinger From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 175 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

I've seen quite a few Indiana State Police Chargers, and I'm convinced they have warp cores installed. I've never seen a vehicle short of something with a rocket go from stop to hauling @ss that fast. And from talking to a few Sheriffs Deputies, they all concur that the Charger is both faster and rides better than the Crown Vic. One went so far as to say that he was certain a CVPI couldn't catch him in a police Charger. And they look mean too. Now if the ISP would only have them in black...

User currently onlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2380 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4608 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Interesting statement that the suspension and engine tuning computers are tweaked for police use.
Is that a common thing nowadays?

Nothing new...
It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 16):
I've seen quite a few Indiana State Police Chargers, and I'm convinced they have warp cores installed. I've never seen a vehicle short of something with a rocket go from stop to hauling @ss that fast.

I've been seeing more and more of them around Long Island - my county got a few for Highway Patrol duties, and yes, they do haul...and handle as well. One officer I was speaking with (at a car show, not on the side of the highway...) said they can go up and around exit ramps at speed the CVPI could never handle.

You don't want to see this in the mirror.
http://www.moose135photography.com/Cars/Local-Car-Shows/Broadway-Mall-Car-Show/JM20101006NCPDCharger003/1037228003_ddYhy-XL.jpg



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 17):
One officer I was speaking with (at a car show, not on the side of the highway...) said they can go up and around exit ramps at speed the CVPI could never handle.

It's good to know they abuse exit ramps too! 

All in the line of duty, of course!  

I have one here that has a right 90 degree turn followed by a bridge followed by a left 90 degree turn.

It's a great place to get a few jollies!

It'd be great if the highway engineers had put in some banking on the turns, but I guess that's too much to ask for!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8419 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

These are better than the police cars I remember from my teens:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/autohistorian/3707897160/

The ones in Tulsa were white.

If you really wanted to get a cop mad in those days you's ask him how he liked his "cute little police car".   


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4565 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting flymia (Reply 11):
I have been noticing more and more Chargers for police all over the place. Right now I agree, we will see how this turns out for ford.

Because the Impala isn't really all that great and with the CV being discontinued, a lot of departments went with the second best option. It'll be interesting to see how the Taurus and Explorers fare in daily use.



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

What? These aren't good replacements for the CVPI?

http://api.ning.com/files/e6jgHPBDJ41dihUcln9OzOIdQA2oTH9Cd3kBRt6x6cwn8GS6g3PRjPOzf65god2akU0fHigl4Co96OwFGOJlfRWgy8nHXGgF/NYPD1.jpg




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User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 17):
You don't want to see this in the mirror.

I don't mind seeing it in the mirror as long as the lights stay off.  
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):
These aren't good replacements for the CVPI?

The Smart car could be used for parking enforcement. I can't think of any better use for it.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):

What? These aren't good replacements for the CVPI?

Superfly won't be responding because your post gave him a stroke.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
Yeah, but admit you wish they did...

Duh.

Signed,
-Superfly  


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4506 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
Stand by for Superfly's hissyfit and apology of the crown vic and everything that has a V8, a rigid transaxle, a body-on-frame and possibly wood panels.

Not quite cop cars but close enough... I never understood why taxis in New York had big heavy V-8 engines in them. That is, of course, until the day I almost missed an inter-continental flight out of JFK and was lucky enough to get a crazy Bulgarian taxi driver in a Crown Vic. Let's just say if I had a Prius and a sane taxi driver I would never had made it in time for my flight...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
I agree with the Fly. I own a 2008 Lincoln Town Car and used to have a 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis.

I actually do need a ride to the airport on Sunday night, how much do you charge?    



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3286 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
As I understand it (and have been explained by a few cops), you don't catch bad guys with a V6, 8, 12, or GE90-115B. You catch them by radioing on ahead and setting up a roadblock in front of them. No car can outrun the speed of light.

Or Onstar disabling a stolen vehicle from a satellite!!

At any rate, I am sure that Ford would be happy to sell public safety departments pursuit versions of the Ford Mustang GTs as a highway pursuit vehicle. California has some of these black Mustangs that I routinely see catching speeders on Interstate 10 near Indio and Blythe, CA.....



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 26, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4584 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

A lot of good videos on this site too...yes it's biased considering the source  http://www.ford.com/fordpoliceinterceptor/


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 27, posted (2 years 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 15):
Yeah, but admit you wish they did...

Well of course.  
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):
What? These aren't good replacements for the CVPI?

Actually it would be great if those big cities with all of their anti-gun, anti-car polices had those kinds of police cars. It would be much easier to run from the cops! 
Quoting bohica (Reply 22):
The Smart car could be used for parking enforcement. I can't think of any better use for it.

Meter maids should be on foot. You know - lead by example....
It would be such an undesirable job that no one would have it, thus no parking tickets.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Superfly won't be responding because your post gave him a stroke.

I was treated at UCSF two years ago when the last thread was posted about this.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2380 posts, RR: 10
Reply 28, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 22):
The Smart car could be used for parking enforcement. I can't think of any better use for it.

That NYPD Smart car was a promotional thing Smart did in Europe, but the Prius is actually used for Traffic Enforcement - in fact, NYC operates a large fleet of hybrid and alternate fuel vehicles.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 26):
A lot of good videos on this site too...yes it's biased considering the source

Interesting, thanks!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 30, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

Quoting desertjets (Reply 5):
I fully suspect Ford will still capture the lion's share of the police market with the Taurus based cruiser -- Ford knows the market the best and will do what it can to ensure the confidence of the police departments that buy from it.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far. One advantage the old CVPI that many here have overlooked was trunk space and cabin width (which translates to 60" of shoulder room). Many departments that utilized 2-man patrol operations likely chose the CVPI for that aspect ALONE.

With the Taurus-based PI, many of the interior and space advantages that the CVPI had over its competitors (excluding SUV/CUV models) are now essentially GONE. While the Taurus PI (TPI for short) has equal or better legroom than the CVPI; it does fall short cabin width & trunk space compared to its discontinued predecessor. Heck, several auto and comsumer magazines that reviewed and tested the 2010 and newer retail Taurus all commented that overall interior space was compromised when the car was revamped compared to its 2005-2009 (Five Hundred/Taurus) predecessor. Talk about a double-whammy.

Tidbit: the listed trunk capcity of the TPI is about 16 cubic ft. whereas the retail Taurus lists a trunk capcity of 20 cubic ft. (within a fraction of the Crown Vic/CVPI) and it's not because of a larger gas tank (the TPI & Taurus list identical fuel tank capacities). Anyone know the reason for the 4 cubic ft. discrepancy? This alone no longer guarantees that the Ford is necessarily a slam-dunk in the police car market.

Long story short, while Ford may have risen to the occassion in the performance department; in other ways it came DOWN to its competitors in the interior space & cargo space departments. On the positive, I will give Ford kudos for making its new Explorer (police model is called the Utility Interceptor) wide enough to achieve 61" of shoulder room.

If Dodge did indeed improve the reliability of its newer Chargers; things may have gotten a little tougher with Ford (and Chevy) in the police car market.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
ran across this interesting link:

The Great Police Car Thread. Crown Vic Replacement (by LOT767-300ER Mar 15 2010 in Non Aviation)

What a difference 2 years make. Most of that older thread focused on 2 cars that were exclusively police vehicles for the North American market: the Carbon E7 & the Holden-based Caprice PPV.

2 years later, it appears that the E7 hasn't inched anywhere closer to production and there appears to be some complications w/the PPV in terms of vehicle deliveries (many law enforcement agencies are experiencing longer delivery delays w/the PPV) I commented on such in the concurrent Chevy/Holden thread.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
These are better than the police cars I remember from my teens:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/autohis...7160/

From the above-web-link photo caption:

1961 Studebaker Lark Marshal Police Car Brochure
Choose the City Marshal with the 112 hp Skybolt Six, the Patrol Marshal with the 180 hp OHV V-8, or the 210 hp V-8 Pursuit Marshal. Available bodies were 2-door or 4-door sedans and station wagons on a 108.5" wheelbase, or the Heavy Duty (H.D.) Sedan on a 113" w.b.


The wheelbase of the H.D. sedan is actually LONGER than that of the TPI (112.9") and the Impala (110").

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
If you really wanted to get a cop mad in those days you's ask him how he liked his "cute little police car".

From what I've read (from the Coporal Ed Sanow publications on old ploice cars) cops weren't too crazy about the styling of the small (116" wheelbase) '62 Dodge Darts either.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 25):
I am sure that Ford would be happy to sell public safety departments pursuit versions of the Ford Mustang GTs as a highway pursuit vehicle. California has some of these black Mustangs that I routinely see catching speeders on Interstate 10 near Indio and Blythe, CA.....

Those are RETAIL Mustangs you're seeing being used for police duties. Ford hasn't offered police-packaged Mustangs since 1993.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
Let's just say if I had a Prius and a sane taxi driver I would never had made it in time for my flight...

I'm sure the Prius with a crazy taxi Bulgarian would have gotten you there just as quickly, the CV even with a V8 is dead slow, it's a massively underpowered car.


User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3085 posts, RR: 20
Reply 32, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

I have driven both the Charger and the Impala cop car. And given the choice between a brand new one of thos as a Vic that has 140 000km I will be taking the crown vic. Mostly because it is the most comfortable for me. When you spend 11 hrs in a car comfort is everything.

Plus the crown vic was most popular not because it was best at anything. Bean counters love them because we could not wreck them mechanically and we abuse them so it was cheapest for them. Plus there was critical mass. I had a guy run into me and it was a write off as the car had 130k on it. Yet there are so many CVPI out there they got parts cheap and fixed it.

Oh and I have never chased any fast car. Most are stolen Neons or Corollas or civics.


We bought a bunch of the new Fords in all wheel drive so we shall see.
GS

[Edited 2012-03-24 08:53:10]


Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 33, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Tidbit: the listed trunk capcity of the TPI is about 16 cubic ft. whereas the retail Taurus lists a trunk capcity of 20 cubic ft. (within a fraction of the Crown Vic/CVPI) and it's not because of a larger gas tank (the TPI & Taurus list identical fuel tank capacities). Anyone know the reason for the 4 cubic ft. discrepancy?

Ideally, it'd be taken up by a machine that produced oven-fresh donuts and hot black coffee! I'd be first in line to buy such a unit! 
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
This alone no longer guarantees that the Ford is necessarily a slam-dunk in the police car market.

Being serious, why the big concern on trunk space? I've seen the open trunk of one of our local CV police cars, and it didn't seem chockablock full of stuff.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Long story short, while Ford may have risen to the occassion in the performance department; in other ways it came DOWN to its competitors in the interior space & cargo space departments.

Moving down to that size seems inevitable, no?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
On the positive, I will give Ford kudos for making its new Explorer (police model is called the Utility Interceptor) wide enough to achieve 61" of shoulder room.

Any estimates on the costs of the two Ford units and their competitors?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6157 posts, RR: 29
Reply 34, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4464 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
the CV even with a V8 is dead slow, it's a massively underpowered car.

I take it you never drove a non turbo Mercedes-Benz.... Now those babies were slow. My 220D was the slowest car I ever drove with a factory 0-60mph time of 29 seconds. My Town Car and Grand Marquis could run circles around my 3 diesel MBs.

My Grand Marquis wasn't all that fast, but compared to the 1980s V-8 cars I had it was. It also had no problem pulling a trailer.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/2000GrandMarquis.jpg



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 35, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Being serious, why the big concern on trunk space? I've seen the open trunk of one of our local CV police cars, and it didn't seem chockablock full of stuff.

I believe the key word here would be AVAILABLE trunk space. Cops may not need to carry every piece of available equipment in the trunk 100% of the time per your statement but they certainly want the ability to do so should an assignment/duty warrant it and there isn't a spare vehicle available.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Moving down to that size seems inevitable, no?

Not to get political and off-topic, but just as the consequences the 2006 & 2008 elections ramped up CAFE standards (along with current & future downsizes); the results of this year's elections could very well alter that possible future.

[Edited 2012-03-24 11:02:41]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (2 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4379 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 35):

I believe the key word here would be AVAILABLE trunk space. Cops may not need to carry every piece of available equipment in the trunk 100% of the time per your statement but they certainly want the ability to do so should an assignment/duty warrant it and there isn't a spare vehicle available.

Ok, available trunk space is indeed a good thing, but enough to cause the market to shift away from Ford?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 35):

Not to get political and off-topic, but just as the consequences the 2006 & 2008 elections ramped up CAFE standards (along with current & future downsizes); the results of this year's elections could very well alter that possible future.

Not to get political and off-topic, but from what I see in my town, our nation's inability to address the cost of health care insurance is having a far bigger impact on our police force than is the drive to increase fuel mileage, which actually helps save the town money, and which has been underway since the Nixon/Ford era. I'd rather have a police officer driving a car somewhat smaller than desired rather than having no officer due to the need to cut budgets to pay for the ever increasing cost of health care insurance, which is what is happening these days.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 37, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
Ok, available trunk space is indeed a good thing, but enough to cause the market to shift away from Ford?

In my earlier post, I also commented on CABIN WIDTH as well. The CVPI had the widest cabin out of the current crop of police cars as well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
our nation's inability to address the cost of health care insurance is having a far bigger impact on our police force than is the drive to increase fuel mileage, which actually helps save the town money, and which has been underway since the Nixon/Ford era.

Several things:

1. While CAFE standards date back to the mid-70s, many police departments were indeed complaining & protesting the loss of available engine power/performance as a result of the vehicle downsizing that took place then. Many police-packaged vehicles from the late 70s through early 80s were among the slowest and sluggish in the industry to this day. That was one reason WHY police-packaged Mustangs & Camaros came into existence in the first place. The problem was these pony-car type vehicles LACKED prisoner space; something that might be needed even during a routine traffic stop. Police Mustangs and Camaros were viewed as enclosed motorcycles.

2. Prior to the 70s downsizing, many police departments indeed opted for mid (Torino/Malibu/Coronet) or compact (Nova) sized cars; but when the downisizing hit, most went right back to full-size cars (LTD/Impala/St. Regis) because most of the then-newly downsized mid-sizes and compacts were viewed as too small. When many of the mid-size models switched to FWD by the mid-80s; most departments stuck with full-sizes thorugh this day.

3. It was only when the CAFE standards STOPPED increasing (it held at 26-27.5 mpg after 1985), that automakers got a some breathing room and started placing beefier engines in their full-size sedans (particularly the Caprice of the mid-90s). Ford and Chevy ultimately decided to go ahead and update their full-sizes only AFTER the 1988 elections.

4. During the last 2 to 3 decades, many police departments started placing more after-market equipment in their vehicles. Gone are the days when the only 'extra' items in a police car were lights and a small under-dash CB radio. The extra equipment, while beneficial to the police officer(s), DO take up some of that interior space. If one makes a vehicle too small that CAN and WILL be an issue.

5. Not ONE of the current crop of police cars even averages 27.5 mpg (the old standard). Should future increases in CAFE proceed as planned, just about every car platform that's used for police packages will have to be downsized or discontinued along with an accompanying reduction in power in order to achieve better economy. Multi-speed tranmissions and Ford's Ecoboost can only go so far in terms of compensation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
I'd rather have a police officer driving a car somewhat smaller

Easy for you to say, you don't work inside of a car 8 to 12 hours a day like many of these officers do. Again, these vehicles are their offices on wheels so to speak.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 38, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

If you want to turn this into a CAFE thread, please start another one....


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 38):
If you want to turn this into a CAFE thread, please start another one....

Why? PHLBOS just told a great history lesson on police cars and their replacements based on CAFE standards. Now, as the new CAFE numbers are now being up'ed by this lost President and his Green administration, what makes you think that the new cars that will replace the Ford CVPI don't have anything to do with CAFE standards? As in the past, it will shape the future. Sorry you want to sweep these insane numbers under the rug, but it's a part of life. Live with it. Or next time vote for someone who has a clue.



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User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 40, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
I'd rather have a police officer driving a car somewhat smaller

I'd rather have the police on foot patrol.  
They won't be able to issue me speeding tickets.  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
rather than having no officer due to the need to cut budgets to pay for the ever increasing cost of health care insurance, which is what is happening these days.

Repairing a Crown Victoria is a hell of a lot cheaper and less frequent than repairing a Volt or a Prius.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 41, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4066 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
I'd rather have the police on foot patrol.
They won't be able to issue me speeding tickets.

You sure about that?  



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4029 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 39):
what makes you think that the new cars that will replace the Ford CVPI don't have anything to do with CAFE standards?

Because police are an incredibly powerful lobbying group, and no sane politician would not give public safety vehicles an exemption from CAFE standards should one be requested, and for that and other reasons, it's a trumped-up issue.

Now, since you enjoy going off-topic, do you want to discuss how your town is dealing with the ever increasing insurance costs for its public safety officers? Mine is responding by laying them off, how about yours?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (2 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 34):
I take it you never drove a non turbo Mercedes-Benz.... Now those babies were slow. My 220D was the slowest car I ever drove with a factory 0-60mph time of 29 seconds.

And what year was your 220D, if it was a W123 it only had 60hp, so I don't get your point.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 44, posted (2 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
Because police are an incredibly powerful lobbying group,

Not when it comes to squad cars. The cops are a powerful lobbying group when it comes to taking away our freedoms, marijuana and guns.
Police cars make up less than 6% of the entire automobile market. Not strong enough to make an impact.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (2 years 8 months 17 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 30):
Tidbit: the listed trunk capcity of the TPI is about 16 cubic ft. whereas the retail Taurus lists a trunk capcity of 20 cubic ft. (within a fraction of the Crown Vic/CVPI) and it's not because of a larger gas tank (the TPI & Taurus list identical fuel tank capacities). Anyone know the reason for the 4 cubic ft. discrepancy? This alone no longer guarantees that the Ford is necessarily a slam-dunk in the police car market.

We just had the Ford demo one here(I work for a law enforcement agency). Looks like there is some added stiffening bars under the trunk mat and a full size spare, plus a sliding equipment rack installed under the rear deck. It even had a built in gun locker in the trunk.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
Charger will become the new #1 police cruiser on the market.

The Chargers we have are pos, break a lot.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
bigger impact on our police force than is the drive to increase fuel mileage, which actually helps save the town money,

Patrol cars burn a lot just idling. Also going from standing still to full nuts catching speeders sucks the gas.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Being serious, why the big concern on trunk space? I've seen the open trunk of one of our local CV police cars, and it didn't seem chockablock full of stuff.

Come to where I work, some guys need a trailer. Between forms, shields, ammo, rain coats, vests, superior weapons, extra batteries, and so on, most trunks are stuffed.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Police cars have pretty much always had additional cooling and heavier duty suspensions

Yep.

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (2 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
Now, since you enjoy going off-topic, do you want to discuss how your town is dealing with the ever increasing insurance costs for its public safety officers? Mine is responding by laying them off, how about yours?

well, to be honest, no one around here is laying anyone off when it comes to PD's. The last department around here that did was a small town (Coopertown, TN) that had a small sliver of I-24 run through it. They were writing tickets left and right until it was discovered they were breaking TN law. After A LOT of refunded tickets, no revenue= no pay. Had to lay off. All other areas are not cutting departments and in fact, Nashville has a shortage of officers. I guess you libs up there in the NE just know how to run governments better than us down here. Oh, wait....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
Because police are an incredibly powerful lobbying group, and no sane politician would not give public safety vehicles an exemption from CAFE standards should one be requested, and for that and other reasons, it's a trumped-up issue.

Really? Really? Name one police vehicle currently being classified as "exempt" from CAFE standards that the " incredibly powerful lobbying group" has been able to stop. Hasn't happened and will not happen. No one is going to clean sheet design a car that is simply built for PD work. The closest thing to that ever happening is the new Caprice, and that was NOT a clean sheet design, it only was to fulfill a contract with Holden, and it's selling so poorly that they are now having to sell them as to the public to fulfill the contract. When the numbers are hit, the Caprice is done again.



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User currently offlineKingFriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1300 posts, RR: 10
Reply 47, posted (2 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting desertjets (Reply 5):

I had one of those last month in PWM. I wrote a ride report on FlyerTalk; it was certainly interesting to drive. It was very comfortable but I don't know how or why that would make a good police car. I guess because it really is a big, solid car.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6382/dsc0003au.jpg

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 16):
I've seen quite a few Indiana State Police Chargers, and I'm convinced they have warp cores installed.

LOL... when I was in Indiana in January I saw a red Mustang with lights and sirens... I slowed down VERY quickly when I saw someone else pulled over.

Quoting moose135 (Reply 17):

They're all over in Long Island! Every other car is a Charger these days so you always have to keep an eye out for them.

-J.



Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you, By the livin' Gawd that made you, You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 48, posted (2 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):
That was one reason WHY police-packaged Mustangs & Camaros came into existence in the first place.

That and the fact that they still used less fuel than large sedans. They ended up being a decent compromise between a motorcycle and a sluggish full size sedan. These days there it isn't really a necessary compromise though since a hemi Charger can do pretty much anything they would need a Mustang or Camaro to do. Even the Air Force has transitioned to Pontiac GTOs and G8s while NASA uses Chargers.

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 45):
Come to where I work, some guys need a trailer. Between forms, shields, ammo, rain coats, vests, superior weapons, extra batteries, and so on, most trunks are stuffed.

...which is a big part of why we need police packages. A cruiser is going add on a couple hundred pounds before the driver is included.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3680 times:
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Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 45):
Come to where I work, some guys need a trailer. Between forms, shields, ammo, rain coats, vests, superior weapons, extra batteries, and so on, most trunks are stuffed.

Don't forget about the step ladder  



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3649 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
That and the fact that they still used less fuel than large sedans.

Not so sure about that.
If driven like a Grandparent would drive, the Mustang police version can get better mileage but I doubt any of them were. Many cop cruiser sedans are regularly driven at the same pace as ordinary people with the occasional pursuit and driving over curbs. The Mustang versions were almost always driven fast.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3085 posts, RR: 20
Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

I also learned this. We have to buy parton cruisers that are tested in the Michigan state police tests. It is actually in the ontario police services act or Ontario adequacy standards. So until the Altima or civics are tested andassed we are limited with what we can use for patrol cars.

Gs



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 51):
We have to buy parton cruisers that are tested in the Michigan state police tests.

Ahh - their 2012 report at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...hicleTestBook_Web_PDF_375491_7.pdf makes for quite interesting reading!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineflyingclrs727 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Police cars have pretty much always had additional cooling and heavier duty suspensions, not unlike a towing package. Some car companies used to have the police package available to normal buyers, which could boost performance though sometimes at a cost of style and creature comforts.

They probably don't offer them, because it would affect the CAFE compliance.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 54, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 47):
It was very comfortable but I don't know how or why that would make a good police car. I guess because it really is a big, solid car.

One-word answer: History.

Police-packaged versions of existing retail cars dates as far back as to a time when most car makers only had one or two sizes in their vheicle line-ups. Those then-called standard-sized cars would later be known as full-size cars by the 1960s & 1970s when car companies started diversifying their product lines.

Additionally, some law enforcement agencies (California Highway Patrol, CHiP, being one of them) HAD weight & wheelbase MINIMUM standards for their enforcement-class vehicles... that is until the mid-70s. From 1956-1974, CHiP's standard for their cars was that it must weight at least 3800 lbs. AND have a wheelbase of 122". The reasoning for this standard, back then, was for better vehicle stability... so it was thought.

CHiP's wheelbase standard alone knocked even the biggest Ford, Chevy & Plymouth sedans out of contention; which was the main reason why they opted for mostly big Dodges and, for 1970, Mercury sedans. Back then, different brands within a company were offered in slightly different sizes in the standard/full-size category (Dodge bigger than Plymouth, Mercury bigger than Ford, Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile bigger than Chevy).

No doubt, the first oil price shock of 1973 plus the fact that many mid-sizes of the early-70s were almost as large as full-size cars of the 1960s was what likely prompted CHiP to drop their size requirements for 1975 (when they bought 1500 mid-size Dodge Coronet sedans for Enforcement Vehicle duties).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 37):
That was one reason WHY police-packaged Mustangs & Camaros came into existence in the first place.

That and the fact that they still used less fuel than large sedans. They ended up being a decent compromise between a motorcycle and a sluggish full size sedan. These days there it isn't really a necessary compromise though since a hemi Charger can do pretty much anything they would need a Mustang or Camaro to do. Even the Air Force has transitioned to Pontiac GTOs and G8s while NASA uses Chargers.

They may be using Chargers today, but the Charger was NOT the reason why Ford & Chevy killed off their Police-Packaged pony cars; it wasn't even around in 1994 (when Ford killed off the Police-Packaged Mustang) or 2003 (when GM dropped its F-body platform).



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 55, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 54):
They may be using Chargers today, but the Charger was NOT the reason why Ford & Chevy killed off their Police-Packaged pony cars;

No, but that's why you won't see them return. The compromise is no longer necessary and even agencies that don't need the size are using bigger cars.

You'll probably see the odd car seized from drug dealers, but that's probably about it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 56, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3488 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 55):
You'll probably see the odd car seized from drug dealers, but that's probably about it.

My old ride  http://locallygrownnorthfield.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/img-3721.jpg



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public. I forget exactly how the program works, but any decent police car collecter (yes, there are police car collectors) can tell you the details.

The ultimate modern police car was the LT-1 powered Caprice. Most cops that had it got over the looks of the car once they realised that it was more powerful than the chase cars they were using. Once it was available, sales for the Special Service Mustang and Corvette disappeared overnight.

As for trunk space, that is a major consideration. Trunks in smaller cars fill up pretty quickly once you put the equipment boxes for the lightbar, radio and video system in place-even when you ditch the spare and jack.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 58, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public.

What I found was:

Quote:

(e) Emergency Vehicles. - (1) In this subsection, "emergency vehicle" means an automobile manufactured primarily for use - (A) as an ambulance or combination ambulance-hearse; (B) by the United States Government or a State or local government for law enforcement; or (C) for other emergency uses prescribed by regulation by the Secretary of Transportation. (2) A manufacturer may elect to have the fuel economy of an emergency vehicle excluded in applying a fuel economy standard under subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d) of this section.

Ref: http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-aver...ge-fuel-economy-standards-19259512

I guess it all hinges on the word "primarily", and whether or not anyone could be bothered to apply for an exemption. I suspect if the production run of police vehicles was large enough to matter to both the manufacturers and the users, they would apply for an exemption under this section of the law or they would lobby to amend the law, and I have a hard time seeing elected officials not supporting such an amendment. However I doubt such an exemption mattered much if at all. The CV has been doomed for a while due to poor sales (which IMHO does have something to do to a degree with its bad fuel economy, not to mention that the public at large does not fancy land yachts these days), not because its police package version dragged down Ford's CAFE numbers.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 56):
My old ride

Nice to see that your night of wild drinking and driving has provided the police with a nice vehicle to use  


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 60, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3176 times:

Bold emphasis and underline added:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
Actually, police package cars are not exempt from CAFE. There is a provision where each manufacturer is allowed to manufacture and sell a certain number of vehicles annually that are non-compliant with CAFE but there are a number of restrictions involved, including no sales to the general public.

What I found was:

Quote:

(e) Emergency Vehicles. - (1) In this subsection, "emergency vehicle" means an automobile manufactured primarily for use - (A) as an ambulance or combination ambulance-hearse; (B) by the United States Government or a State or local government for law enforcement; or (C) for other emergency uses prescribed by regulation by the Secretary of Transportation. (2) A manufacturer may elect to have the fuel economy of an emergency vehicle excluded in applying a fuel economy standard under subsection (a), (b), (c), or (d) of this section.

Ref: http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-aver...59512

With the exception of the current Caprice PPV, EVERY Police-Packaged CAR in the U.S. is/was based off an existing version of said-car that also sold in the U.S. retail market past or present. Even the PPV could have the potential of being sold in the U.S. as a retail model; it is already rumored that a Chevy dealership in Maryland sold a few PPVs in the retail market that were likely cancellations of a prior police department order.

Nonetheless, if the basic model is mass-produced (at least 10,000 vehicles per model year) AND weighs UNDER 8500 lbs.; then it IS indeed subject to EPA mileage ratings AND CAFE laws whether it is sold in fleet (police) or retail markets.

Long story short, just about every police-packaged CAR sold in the U.S. since 1978 has been subject to CAFE laws.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
The CV has been doomed for a while due to poor sales (which IMHO does have something to do to a degree with its bad fuel economy, not to mention that the public at large does not fancy land yachts these days), not because its police package version dragged down Ford's CAFE numbers.

That wasn't always the case. During most of the Panther platform's 32-year life span; the Crown Vic (and '79-'82 LTD) was sold in the retail market as well and its total sales numbers (both fleet and retail full-size Fords) sold well enough to avoid getting the axe until recently.

There were 2 primary reasons WHY the Police-Packaged Panther didn't receive either the Sequential Port-Fuel Injected 5.8L (which became available in 1986 for large trucks & vans) or the 5.4L ('97 and later for large trucks, vans & SUVs) as possible engine options:

1. The ratings of those engines would've automatically triggered an addtional Gas-Guzzler tax for all vehicle purchases due to the CAFE laws in place at the time. Heck, even the variable-venturi powered 5.8L engines from the mid-80s through 1991 triggered the GG tax. Some departments applied to the IRS to request an exemption from the tax (not sure if such exemptions were actually granted). While GM was eventually able to avoid the GG tax after 1993 for its 5.7L powered full-sizes; it just barely cleared that threshold.

2. For most of its 32-year lifespan, the very existence of the platform was ALWAYS under a constant threat. Upgrades & changes (notably the 1992 revamp) were only done if it was known that platform was going to be around for another few years or so. Originally, the both Ford's Panther platform and GM's RWD B & C Bodies weren't expected to survive past 1985 (GM's were originally supposed to be gone by 1983).

Lower gas prices (at the time), an improving economy (again, at the time), buyer demand and CAFE standards remaining flat were the main reasons WHY the Panther platform lasted as long as it did.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 61, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3127 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 59):
Nice to see that your night of wild drinking and driving has provided the police with a nice vehicle to use

  



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 62, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3083 times:

Thanks for the various comments about the need for space in a police vehicle.

I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Bold emphasis and underline added:

As well as capitalization, which usually is interpreted as shouting.

All not necessary in my opinion, but it's your post, do what you want.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Long story short, just about every police-packaged CAR sold in the U.S. since 1978 has been subject to CAFE laws.

Correct, but you didn't address my point that there was an exemption in place for public service vehicles and there would be grounds to expand that exemption if the users and the manufacturers thought police sales were significant enough to sway the entire Ford CAFE average, but no such effort was made.

So, your point is true but not particularly significant, in my opinion.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 60):
Lower gas prices (at the time), an improving economy (again, at the time), buyer demand and CAFE standards remaining flat were the main reasons WHY the Panther platform lasted as long as it did.

Put another way, higher gas prices, a weak economy, lack of buyer demand and increasing CAFE standards doomed the Panther platform. Of course lack of buyer demand is triggered by high gas prices and the weak economy, as well as the fact that buyer's preferences have largely moved away from land yachts such as the CV.

As you said, there were various points where Ford could have put better tech into the platform to improve its viability, but to me the reason was simply that the core car buying market was moving away from the CV so Ford saw no business case for doing so. They just kept milking the existing product line till it there no longer was any profit left in it, then they killed it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
As well as capitalization, which usually is interpreted as shouting.

Key word: Usually, but not always. If one was typing several words together in caps; then the shouting assumption would likely be correct. Everything typed in caps more often than not means that somebody accidentally left the Caps Lock On.

Many of my caps involved acronyms, initials and/or abbreviations (IMHO, IIRC, CVPI, PPV, CAFE, IRS, GG) as well. 



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2996 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 61):
it is already rumored that a Chevy dealership in Maryland sold a few PPVs in the retail market that were likely cancellations of a prior police department order.

Correct. Those cars were already ordered by the police department-thus the dealer could legally resell the vehicles. As far as police package vehicles, that only goes back to about 1950. Pre-1950s police vehicles were virutally the same as stock vehicles. The vehicles that the dealer sold also probably had the onboard computer's chip changed to derate the cars.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

There is the safety issue with roll-overs with a high center of gravity SUV in pursuits.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
higher gas prices, ......doomed the Panther platform.

The recent model panther platforms were getting decent gas mileage and all of the alternatives mentioned in this thread get the same or worse fuel economy.

Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
a weak economy,

I thought we were in a recovery.   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
I wonder if this will help support sales of the Explorer?

There is the safety issue with roll-overs with a high center of gravity SUV in pursuits.

Good point.

I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise? Lower CG, more room for storage in the back, some models have AWD so they be at least OK in bad traction situations, etc. However I would wonder about the reliability of many CUVs in the police role because most aren't built to take a pounding.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
higher gas prices, ......doomed the Panther platform.

The recent model panther platforms were getting decent gas mileage and all of the alternatives mentioned in this thread get the same or worse fuel economy.

Many of the models in this thread aren't stellar sellers either. Car buyers see gas persistently at $4/gal and wonder how much higher it's going to go over the time period they own their next car and act differently when gas was persistently below $4/gal. Some sign up to pay for the gas, many walk away.

Here's a chart adjusted for inflation.



You can see after the spike of the Arab Oil Embargo of the 70s, gas has stayed below $2/gal for the 80s and 90s, and has done nothing but gone up in the 200s except for a correction in 2008. Now one can always hope for corrections, but people buying today mostly don't expect one.

If you want to see what it's done vs other things we have to buy:



This type of change is what puts fear into the hearts of buyers.

Ref: http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/...gas-price-rise-of-the-last-decade/

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

The whole market shifted away from land yachts, especially for younger buyers. Personally I don't see how more advertising could have bucked that trend. I think most people knew about the car. In the early 90s when my MIL was looking at cars, we took her to the Merc dealer. She passed on the TC because she didn't want to deal with parking the beast, or having others ding it up because they couldn't deal with parking next to the beast.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 62):
a weak economy,

I thought we were in a recovery.

We are. The decision to kill the CV/TC was made quite a while ago.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 57):
The ultimate modern police car was the LT-1 powered Caprice. Most cops that had it got over the looks of the car once they realised that it was more powerful than the chase cars they were using. Once it was available, sales for the Special Service Mustang and Corvette disappeared overnight.

The LT1 Caprice (Impala SS) was clocked at 142 mph by a magazine. So, for the 90s it acceleration between 80 and 120 was very good.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
This type of change is what puts fear into the hearts of buyers.

Oil buyers? Sure, one can see how that fear feeds on itself. But there is no reason to select 1998 as a norm. That was the Asian Financial Crisis which probably caused an unnatural surplus in oil supplies for several years. I can remember filling up for 79c/gallon inin the late 90s. Today Asia is becoming a titan. So it seems clear that Asia is now bidding prices up.

edit: China has gone from about 3 million barrels per day in 1998 to 10 million in 2012. The US consumes 19-20 million, flat over recent years. Since 1998, India moved from about 2 million to 3 million bpd. Global production has grown too.

[Edited 2012-04-05 06:57:21]

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 67):
But there is no reason to select 1998 as a norm.

Changing the year doesn't matter much: the main point is car buyers are favoring high mileage/gallon vehicles because the price of gasoline currently is at or near historic highs, and as the data you added points out, there's lots of reason to be concerned that it will stay high and/or go higher due to increased demand from emerging nations.

I just did some back-of-the envelope math that shows I'm paying around $180/month for gasoline, which on its own is one of my higher monthly expenses outside of my mortgage. If I was driving a Dodge Charger with an 8 cyl engine, it'd be around $260/month. It is enough money to make one think.

Ref: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2012_Dodge_Charger.shtml



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40011 posts, RR: 74
Reply 69, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise? Lower CG, more room for storage in the back, some models have AWD so they be at least OK in bad traction situations, etc. However I would wonder about the reliability of many CUVs in the police role because most aren't built to take a pounding.

Many CUVs get worse mileage than the Crown Victoria and/or about the same.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Car buyers see gas persistently at $4/gal and wonder how much higher it's going to go over the time period they own their next car

Well if Obama's Energy Secretary Steven Chu has his way, gas prices will reach the same cost as in Europe. At least that is what the administration's goal seems to be....



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7554 posts, RR: 23
Reply 70, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Ford stopped marketing the panther platform decades ago. It's had to generate enthusiasm for a vehicle that many don't know still exist and often synonymous with police car or taxi.

The whole market shifted away from land yachts, especially for younger buyers. Personally I don't see how more advertising could have bucked that trend. I think most people knew about the car.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody has yet commented on one primary reason for that fore-mentioned retail market shifting... SUVs. Once automakers (not just Ford) realized that they could offer a vehicle that had all the capabilities of a full-size car or station wagon and then some without the related-CAFE penalties and Gas Guzzler taxes (until recently, the truck CAFE standard was set at 20 mpg); to them, it was essentially a no-brainer in terms of what to market and what not to market... especially when gas prices remained low or level. While a 5.4L engine in a Crown Vic would trigger a Gas Guzzler tax; the same engine in an Expedition would not.

While police departments have utilized SUVs dating back to Ford's original Bronco; the majority of them were not used for pursuit duties. Such packages were (and still are) referred to as Special Service Packages. These packages, while beefier than their retail counterparts were not pursuit-rated.

I'm not 100% sure regarding Ford's new Utility Interceptor (Explorer) being pursuit-rated; but prior to that, the only pursuit-rated SUV available to law enforcement has been the 2WD Chevy Tahoe PPV. Ford's previous Explorer (2010 & older) and its Expedition packages offered to police, fire department, EMTs, etc. were never pursuit-rated and Ford even went as far as warning agencies that using those vehicles for pursuit purposes would void all warranties.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
I wonder if a CUV would be a reasonable compromise?

Some would argue that is what the new Explorer/Utility Interceptor essentially is. It uses the same D3 platform as the Taurus.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12261 posts, RR: 35
Reply 71, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 70):
I'm not 100% sure regarding Ford's new Utility Interceptor (Explorer) being pursuit-rated;

It is.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 70):
Ford's previous Explorer (2010 & older) and its Expedition packages offered to police, fire department, EMTs, etc. were never pursuit-rated and Ford even went as far as warning agencies that using those vehicles for pursuit purposes would void all warranties.

The Expedition is fun on the EVOC course   Makes the Crown Vic feel nimble. Lol



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
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