SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3532 posts, RR: 9 Posted (2 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1344 times:
HP/US CEO Doug Parker has become the Wall Street adored darling of the airline industry and transportation sector over the past year and a half since he boldly propose that his carrier at the time America West (HP) acquire then USAir (US) and become USAirways group. In doing so he rescued a doomed soon to liquidate carrier in US and has forged ahead in creating a new carrier that is a force to be reckoned with along the eastern seaboard, southeast and to some extent the western USA. This merger was his first great success, he is young being only 45, and reportedly has quite the personality. Quite obviously he was able to sell Wall Street on this first deal.
On the other hand you have 75 year old Gerald Grinstien who was brought on nearly 3 years ago to rescue DL from the financial abyss dealt them by both Ronald W. Allen and Leo Mullin over the previous 15 years. Grinstien is a Harvard educated business attorney who has prior experience with mergers in the transportation sector first as CEO of Western Airlines back in the 1970s and 1980s. He rescued Western financially having them restructure many of their routes through SLC rather than just LAX or DEN, and then by the mid 1980s was successful in shopping Western for a merger with DL. After that Grinstien moved on to Burlington Northern Railway where he was also successful in orchestrating the merger with the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad to form BNSF. Grinstein is old enough to be Parker's father, and obviously has a more experienced understanding of mergers in the airline and transportation sector on the whole. He obviously understands securities law as well as anti-trust regulations to be able to deal with the FTC regulators and financial guru's on Wall Street.
In this proposed hostile takeover that sent the transportation sector on Wall Street into a frenzy this past week who is ultimately going to win in this battle? To use a couple of ethical term adjectives coined by Stephen R. Covey, will it be Parker and his obviously strong personality ethic? Or will it be Grinstien and his longstanding character ethic? Â Â
[Edited 2006-11-19 19:39:18]
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
SBN580 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 401 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1317 times:
This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions?
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 10433 posts, RR: 79 Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1272 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter): In this proposed hostile takeover that sent the transportation sector on Wall Street into a frenzy this past week who is ultimately going to win in this battle?
You don't feel that there are enough threads on this already?
SLCUT2777 From United States, joined Dec 2005, 3532 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1225 times:
Quoting SBN580 (Reply 1): This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions?
http://www.stephencovey.com/index.html
I think this website can give you some good insight into the work of Dr. Covey since he is one of the top motivational and organizational guru's in the business world. Over the last twenty years or so there has been a considerable shift from the Dale Carnage "Character Ethic" to more of the "Personality Ethic" which is more manipulation based. Back in the early 1990s Dr. Covey published a book; The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". You can also find more about it over on the Franklin/Covey Leadership site: http://www.franklincovey.com/fc/index.jsp?
Outside of government many of the people I deal with work for Franklin Covey, and virtually all of them say this is a classic case of manipulation in the short term.
Quoting Mariner (Reply 2): You don't feel that there are enough threads on this already?
This proposal has long ranging impacts on Civil Aviation in the USA, and warrant more discussion since it also has serious financial and business implications as well.
Quoting Mariner (Reply 2): Mr. Grinstein, but I do think it would be polite if you spelt his name correctly.
Since the spell checker here won't pick it up, I'll have Mr. Harry Nolan's book handy the next time.
[Edited 2006-11-19 20:54:10]
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
SBN580 From United States, joined Mar 2005, 401 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1215 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4): Quoting SBN580 (Reply 1):This is interesting background. However, I do not know how the author you mention defines, "strong personality ethic," and "character ethic." They seem like both positive terms. Can you help us with the definitions? http://www.stephencovey.com/index.html
I think this website can give you some good insight into the work of Dr. Covey since he is one of the top motivational and organizational guru's in the business world. Over the last twenty years or so there has been a considerable shift from the Dale Carnage "Character Ethic" to more of the "Personality Ethic" which is more manipulation based. Back in the early 1990s Dr. Covey published a book; The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". You can also fin more about it over on the Franklin/Covey Leadership site: http://www.franklincovey.com/fc/index.jsp?
Outside of government many of the people I deal with work for Franklin Covey, and virtually all of them say this is a classic case of manipulation in the short term.
Thanks. I knew I had heard of him. My personal favorite in this area has always been Tom Peters.
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
Mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 10433 posts, RR: 79 Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1199 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4): This proposal has long ranging impacts on Civil Aviation in the USA, and warrant more discussion since it also has serious financial and business implications as well.
FYI, there is a thread in "Site related" complaining about the sheer number of US/DL threads.
Twenty two threads ( and more since) is a lot of discussion, I am puzzled you think it is not enough. I have defended the number of threads, but I am starting to wonder if I was wrong.
However, I still think you are missing the point about Mr. Grinstein. Which point (I think) is interesting, and has to do with his age and future. This may affect how he sees the bid, and how strongly he may fight it.
ChiGB1973 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 1514 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1196 times:
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3): Business 101 of the US society in the 21st century: there are no ethics and thee who is more narcissistic wins.
Though the definition of ethical could be in question, ethically speaking, Parker would have given up on this merger/buy out/takeover when Grinstein told him he did not want to do it in the initial discussions over the past few months. If you want to talk ethics, Parker taking it to the press and creditors could bring in to question his ethics on this situation. Or is it, "the nice guy finishes last." He tried to be nice, now he must pull out the guns. Just depends on which side of the merger you are on. Ethically, a doctor should not kill someone agonizing in pain with bone cancer with an overdose of Morphine. Or should he?
Essentially, it is business. Parker sees something he wants and went after it. He questioned DL's possession of WMD. He is certain they are there.
Personality vs experience? Morphine vs suffering? WMD vs no WMD?
WesternA318 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 4268 posts, RR: 16 Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1148 times:
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter): will it be Parker and his obviously strong personality ethic? Or will it be Grinstien and his longstanding character ethic?
I think if both of these personalities combine, the airline will definately be forced to be reckoned with. I for one, am all for this merger, and not just becasue I own a hefty chunk of stock!
Get that worldly look, one country at a time. Work Hard, Fly Right.
Thegooddoctor From United States, joined Nov 2005, 478 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1107 times:
Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8): Though the definition of ethical could be in question, ethically speaking, Parker would have given up on this merger/buy out/takeover when Grinstein told him he did not want to do it in the initial discussions over the past few months.
I'm not sure your definition of "ethics" is well informed when it comes to this point. Taking over Delta is not morally good or bad based on the action itself. I would find it unethical if he bought the airline, then folded it up and fired all the employees. However, a takeover would not just be highly ethical, but philanthropic, if he took over the airline, turned it around to profitability and (in so doing) provided job stability for the employees of Delta.
Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 8): Ethically, a doctor should not kill someone agonizing in pain with bone cancer with an overdose of Morphine.
That is a HORRIBLE analogy. Do they teach any rules of rhetoric in schools anymore??
Now, since you elected to pick on medicine... here's a better analogy: You are a physician and have a hypoxic pediatric patient who is refusing treatment when he/she is admitted to the Emergency department (hint: this is the part that's analogous to Delta refusing US's overtures), but knowing that your patient can not think clearly for themselves at this point, you secure the permission of the patient's parents to treat the child (kinda like US going around the DL CEO to secure the blessing of the shareholders) and you intubate the patient, saving his/her life (analogous to the projected benefit of US buying DL).
Success? Call me when they are fully integrated. Until then they are still a mess after more than a year. Poor management on his part not making his line managers work towards integration.
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter): HP/US CEO Doug Parker has become the Wall Street adored darling of the airline industry and transportation sector over the past year and a half since he boldly propose that his carrier at the time America West (HP) acquire then USAir (US) and become USAirways group. In doing so he rescued a doomed soon to liquidate carrier in US and has forged ahead in creating a new carrier that is a force to be reckoned with along the eastern seaboard, southeast and to some extent the western USA.
Yada yada yada...do you work for the HP PR department or did you lift this one from an editorial somewhere?
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
ChiGB1973 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 1514 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1016 times:
Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10): not sure your definition of "ethics" is well informed when it comes to this point.
That's why I said, "Though the definition of ethical could be in question."
Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10): have a hypoxic pediatric patient who is refusing treatment when he/she is admitted to the Emergency department
Though state laws vary, a child (unless married, pregnant or in the military) cannot refuse treatment. You do not need the parents permission to treat them. If it were an adult:
Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10): knowing that your patient can not think clearly for themselves
you also have a legal duty to act.
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 11): I don't think the original author was discussing ethics as we're discussing it.
Ethos, maybe
I agree, I just did not have "ethos" in my vocabulary 10 minutes ago. That is why I called ethically in to question in my initial post. Thanks for my new word.
Jacobin777 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 12734 posts, RR: 57 Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 days ago) and read 983 times:
Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 9):
I think if both of these personalities combine, the airline will definately be forced to be reckoned with. I for one, am all for this merger, and not just becasue I own a hefty chunk of stock!
Mr. Grinstein will retire after DL is out of BK.....the chances of them working "side-by-side" is slim to none...
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 12): Success? Call me when they are fully integrated. Until then they are still a mess after more than a year. Poor management on his part not making his line managers work towards integration.
He took a carrier on the verge of liquidation up and running....he saved many jobs and he did a good job of running his other airline before the merger....that's success to me..
Thegooddoctor From United States, joined Nov 2005, 478 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 days ago) and read 959 times:
Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 14):
Though state laws vary, a child (unless married, pregnant or in the military) cannot refuse treatment. You do not need the parents permission to treat them. If it were an adult:
...in my hypothetical situation, legal guardian(s) are present, permission to tx IS still secured. A minor cannot refuse treatment if they have no guardian present - but a parent may in most places.
Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 14): That's why I said, "Though the definition of ethical could be in question."
That's the point of my response - the definition is not in question - the way you interpret it is/was incorrect.
Positiverate From United States, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 days ago) and read 953 times:
Let's talk about ethics in the Parker v. Grinstein world:
Remember that there was a big fight in Congress on behalf of the airlines that have defined benefit pension plans (DL, AA, CO, NW), that Grinstein and Doug Steeneland began, to give them more time to amortize their debt. Parker and America West/USAir actively worked to block this, which left a sour taste in the mouths of many in the House and Senate. The thinking is, "why would someone actively work to block an airline from meeting their obligations to their employees?" Regardless, I would rather have the CEO that would fight to keep my pension, then the CEO that dumped all my pensions in a merger/bankruptcy, and then blocked another airline's efforts to meet their obligation to its employees.
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